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Old Oct 17, 2009, 10:48 AM   #121
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What's wrong with just being polite?

What's wrong with asking permission to take someone's photo, or the photo of someone's child?

Absent prior consent, what's wrong with asking permission to keep and use the photo you just took?

And if they say no, what's wrong with deleting it, and waiting for someone else to come along so you can take another?

So what if any fears they may have are irrational? What's wrong with setting someone's mind at ease?

I'm afraid of dying in a plane crash. That kind of thing doesn't happen a lot, so my fear is irrational, but it's still real to me.

Some parents have an irrational fear of their child being abducted. That doesn't happen a lot, so their fear is irrational, but it's still real to them.

What's wrong with allaying someone's fears, however irrational they may be, just to be nice?

If you don't do it, don't be surprised if a police officer asks you about it, if only to try to allay someone else's fears.
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Old Oct 17, 2009, 11:24 AM   #122
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What's wrong with just being polite?

What's wrong with asking permission to take someone's photo, or the photo of someone's child?

Absent prior consent, what's wrong with asking permission to keep and use the photo you just took?

And if they say no, what's wrong with deleting it, and waiting for someone else to come along so you can take another?

So what if any fears they may have are irrational? What's wrong with setting someone's mind at ease?

I'm afraid of dying in a plane crash. That kind of thing doesn't happen a lot, so my fear is irrational, but it's still real to me.

Some parents have an irrational fear of their child being abducted. That doesn't happen a lot, so their fear is irrational, but it's still real to them.

What's wrong with allaying someone's fears, however irrational they may be, just to be nice?

If you don't do it, don't be surprised if a police officer trys to allay that parent's fears by asking you about it.
What's wrong with asking permission to look at someone's, or someone's child? I've looked at people who demanded I tell them "what are you looking at?"

Absent prior consent, what's wrong with asking permission to remember what that person looked like or was doing?

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So what if any fears they may have are irrational? What's wrong with setting someone's mind at ease?
Might as well ask why we force children to learn that evolution is reality. Should we make the teaching of science optional, and let kids believe that the value of pi equals 3? The more we treat the image of a person captured on film as the actual person, we are simply saying that the irrational wins. Aren't you getting a bit tired of allowing the irrational to win? Doesn't it have impact on other things as well as this one aspect of life? Haven't you even noticed that the irrational is gaining ground?

My parents taught me to look both ways before I crossed the street, they taught me not to run with sharp objects in my hand, and yes, they warned me not to go off with a stranger. They never warned me about my picture being taken.

I can show you what happens to kids who didn't look both ways, and I can tell you stories about kids who ran with sharp objects, but I can't show you how a normally taken picture of a child or an adult has harmed them.

A society increasingly stressed, and fearful, and I'm going to worry about taking someones picture? And this is especially true, since you cannot imagine asking permission of someone who appears in a shot of a house, or downtown building, or the beach, where they didn't happen to be the main subject. Is Selving pictures of a dog looking at people "wrong?" Did he ask permission of the subjects, who are as clearly visible as the other aspects of his shot?

If a so called photographer impedes, blocks, harrases his subjects he/she is guilty of harrassment, and permission or no permission, shame on them. But those things can be done without a camera.

This is kind of odd. Once a few years ago I saw a woman with the oddest eyes. I asked her permission to look at them. I did this because to do so would require me "getting into her face." Nor did I even have a camera with me. This is called being polite. Without asking, I would have been harrassing her. Never occurred to me to just block her way, and stick my face a few feet from her.

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Old Oct 17, 2009, 11:42 AM   #123
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You don't have to educate me about irrationality. I'm a member of The Committee for Skeptical Inquiry. It is the mission of CSI to promote scientific inquiry and critical thinking. But just because someone's belief system is irrational (i.e.: UFOs, herbal cancer cures, voodoo, etc.) doesn't mean we should insult them as people. And if someone has a belief system, and my actions are an affront to that belief system, I don't have a problem with seeking their forgiveness just to be nice.

What about you?

Never mind. I already know the answer to that.
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Old Oct 17, 2009, 12:15 PM   #124
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You don't have to educate me about irrationality. I'm a member of The Committee for Skeptical Inquiry. It is the mission of CSI to promote scientific inquiry and critical thinking. But just because someone's belief system is irrational (i.e.: UFOs, herbal cancer cures, voodoo, etc.) doesn't mean we should insult them as people. And if someone has a belief system, and my actions are an affront to that belief system, I don't have a problem with seeking their forgiveness just to be nice.

What about you?

Never mind. I already know the answer to that.
Your mind is already made up about this issue and me. I always respect other peoples belief systems. And? Does my respect for an Orthodox Jew or Muslim mean I should dump my pork ribs in the garbage can so as not to offend them? Should your wife and daughter wear a burkha since the sight of all that naked flesh violates some peoples beliefs?

Should Italian pork stores put a curtain over their products?

I respect those who believe in creationism, does it mean it should be taught in schools?

I am taking harmless images. And people who choose to walk around in public have their pictures taken by hidden cameras all over the place. Pictures which are recorded, stored, poored over my anoynmous employee's of Private and Government institutions. Photographers who shoot other targets have captured their image, recognisable as if the subject WAS them.

Here is a shot of someone who doesn't give a damn about someone taking his picture. In fact, when he saw me shooting, he gave me the thumbs up! He was the only subject of this picture. What did I crop out?




So, when you take a picture of a building that contains people, all you're saying is that respect goes just do far, and then screw them. But you're NOT really saying that - You're saying that the image of a person when captured does them no harm, and while you might respect peoples beliefs, living in a free society means they too have to respect Your beliefs.

Because here is what I cropped out of this picture; she is more recognisable than the actual subject of the image. And I can post a thousand similar images.




Dave

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Old Oct 17, 2009, 12:38 PM   #125
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Your mind is already made up about this issue and me.
My mind is already made up about what? I'm simply a proponent of being civil. My mind is made up that being civil is better than being uncivil. How do you feel about that?

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I always respect other peoples belief systems. And? Does my respect for an Orthodox Jew or Muslim mean I should dump my pork ribs in the garbage can so as not to offend them? Should your wife and daughter wear a burkha since the sight of all that naked flesh violates some peoples beliefs?
No.

But should you apologise for offering pork to an Orthodox Jew or Muslim?

Yes.

Should you apologise for offering Scotch to a recovering alcoholic?

Yes.

Why?

Because that's what civilized people do.
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Old Oct 17, 2009, 1:10 PM   #126
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My mind is already made up about what? I'm simply a proponent of being civil. My mind is made up that being civil is better than being uncivil. How do you feel about that?
I suggest you switch over to landscape and wildlife photography, and only in deserted places. I strongly doubt that your life is "more civil" than mine.


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But should you apologise for offering pork to an Orthodox Jew or Muslim?
Now you are entering the rhealm of the silly... Pray tell, apologise for what? If I knowingly offer pork to someone to whom it is forbidden, than I am doing quite a bit more than making an innocent mistake. If I DON'T know it's forbidden, what is there to apologise for. In one case I am demonstrating hatred of these people, in the other simple ignorance.

When I was a kid, a friend of my Father came to visit. He was a very religious Jew, and brought along some fruit so he would have something to eat. I came out of the house with my ham sandwitch, and put it on the table with the fruit. He made a grab for the fruit, but was an instant to late - His fruit was no longer Kosher...

But he made that swipe and without breaking stride, and without altering the motion, said to me, "Hey, would you like some fruit?"


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Should you apologise for offering Scotch to a recovering alcoholic?
Yes.

Why?

Because that's what civilized people do.[/QUOTE]

Once again, if I knowlingly offer liguor to an alchoholic, this is not a question of civility. If I DIDN'T know he's an alchoholic, what is there to apoligise for? This has come up in my life, and I've said to the person, "Oh, I didn't know? How about some juice?

But it could very well be that those taking photographs in which the main subject is NOT people have taken more pictures of people than I ever have. And you never apoligised once. Now don't you feel bad?

But these are all diversions from the questions raised by this thread. Essentially, if the irrational continues to make headway, and all our freedoms are removed one by one; might there be people arguing that this is good.

NB.

My rights end when they impose on Your rights. If my girlfriend chooses to wear a bikinni that you find offensive - That is just to bad.

You have NO RIGHT to impose creationism in a public school. And I don't need to apologise to you for forcing your children to learn evolution.

Because an apology is an admission of wrong doing, of doing harm, an admission that a photograph really is harmful to you, imposes on you...

But it doesn't - Because it it did, well, as I said, better learn landscape and wildlife photoghraphy.

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Old Oct 17, 2009, 1:21 PM   #127
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I dont think you can convince a neanderthal anything about being civil.
"I have a camera and I will do whatever I [email protected] well want".
Someone so ill mannered at this stage in life is beyond comprehending civility. This is another thread where everyone is just getting their feet wet.
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Old Oct 17, 2009, 1:40 PM   #128
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I dont think you can convince a neanderthal anything about being civil.
"I have a camera and I will do whatever I [email protected] well want".
Someone so ill mannered at this stage in life is beyond comprehending civility. This is another thread where everyone is just getting their feet wet.
Once again you are trying to close a thread.

Sorry, I wont bite.

Others DO want to have a civil discussion on a question which increasingly affects all photographers. Everyone who goes out to take pictures of people and buildings, indeed even landscapes is increasingly affected by this issue. Nothing in objective reality has changed, only people attitudes have changed - And they have not changed because people suddenly discovered that normal photography actually harms anyone in anyway.

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Old Oct 17, 2009, 1:58 PM   #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TCav View Post
My mind is already made up about what? I'm simply a proponent of being civil. My mind is made up that being civil is better than being uncivil. How do you feel about that?
I suggest you switch over to landscape and wildlife photography, and only in deserted places. I strongly doubt that your life is "more civil" than mine.
I only said that my mind is made up that being civil is better than being uncivil, and then asked you how you felt about it.

But from your response, can I conclude that you haven't decided?

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Now you are entering the rhealm of the silly... Pray tell, apologise for what? If I knowingly offer pork to someone to whom it is forbidden, than I am doing quite a bit more than making an innocent mistake. If I DON'T know it's forbidden, what is there to apologise for. In one case I am demonstrating hatred of these people, in the other simple ignorance.
But not only is ignorance cureable, in some circumstances it's something to be ashamed of. Why wouldn't someone apologize for it, especially if, in their ignorance, they offended someone else?

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Originally Posted by Chato View Post
Once again, if I knowlingly offer liguor to an alchoholic, this is not a question of civility. If I DIDN'T know he's an alchoholic, what is there to apoligise for? This has come up in my life, and I've said to the person, "Oh, I didn't know? How about some juice?.
Again, why wouldn't someone apologize for being ignorant if, in their ignorance, they offended someone else?

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My rights end when they impose on Your rights. If my girlfriend chooses to wear a bikinni that you find offensive - That is just to bad.
But once again, we're not talking about rights. We're talking about civility. We're talking about compassion. We're talking about getting along with our neighbors. We're talking about being civilized.

People are entitled to their rights, and I will fight any attempt to infringe upon their rights, regardless of how uncivil they may be.
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Old Oct 17, 2009, 2:26 PM   #130
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CHATO wrote: I would like to know why we have to watch out for our privacy today as opposed to when I grew up in the Fifties? Certainly attitidudes toward photographers were different. But photography hasn't changed in ANY qualitative manner.

But it has. Digital photography and the internet have completely changed it.
In the 'old days' one took a roll of film and turned it in to be developed. Many of the larger labs censored the pictures. (don't lets get into whether that was right or wrong) You received your prints and were then able to show them to family and friends. Or you shot slides and bored your family and friends with slide shows. End of story. If you were a member of an extremely tiny minoity, you developed and printed your own. Still only could show them to a few people unless you sold them to a news outlet or published a photo book. Either way, it cost you money, and the number of potential viewers was very limited.

Today, with a digital camera, the process is instant, cheap and prolific. Due consideration has gone out the window, and second thoughts occur after the event, not prior. The potential number of viewers is limited only by the number of internet users ( many millions).
CHATO also wrote: My rights end when they impose on Your rights.

Exactly. I contend I have the right to determine where and how pictures of me are presented, and that my right to privacy trumps your right to present pictures of me without my consent. I'm also perfectly willing to enforce my right.

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