Go Back   Steve's Digicams Forums > Digicam Help > General Discussion

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old Dec 26, 2003, 12:14 PM   #1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 160
Default A80 returned due to redeye-Olympus C4000, C740/750 or other?

I've made a couple of posts about my issue with red eye on my Canon A80. I liked the camera quite a bit, but the red eye problem in available light indoor flash photos was a big issue for me.

I used a friends Olympus C4000z in the same conditions and it does not have the red eye problem that the A80 does. In fact, red eye was pretty much a non event.

EDIT: After using it some more, it DOES have similar red eye issues. The C4000 is not the answer.

I'm willing to go to a larger camera than the A80 to not have the red eye problems. The C4000 worked well, but I never tried a C740 or C750. The C4000 has the flash far enough (apparently) from the lens to not have the red eye problems that the A80 and similar compact cameras have. The 740/750 has a pop up flash which also seems to have a decent distance from the lens.

Will the 740/750 have as good a red eye performance as the C4000?

Power:
All 3 use AA for power which is nice.

Storage:
None of them use CF which is a shame since I like CF and have a fair amount of it. The C4000 use the pretty much obsolete SM, max size is 128. The 740/750 use xD which is more of a current tech and available up to 512. This is a minor point since i dont own any of either at this time.

Lens
3X on the C4000 vs 10X on the 740/750. The extra zoom would be nice on occasion. I notice the C4000 has a smaller "3X" than the Canon. 96mm vs 114mm.

Size:
The 740/750 is actually a little smaller than the C4000.

Ergo:
The 740/750 seams to have more control via the thumb wheel, where the C4000 needs more stuff done via the LCD menu. The C4000 has a bigger 1.8" LCD VS the 1.5" on the 740/750.

Price: (ballpark online without shipping)
C4000 $300
C740 $350
C750 $450

The C750 is a bit higher than I wanted spend. The Hot Shoe is a nice option, but honestly, I dont think I would use it. I dont own that type of flash right now. The cost of one of as much as a camera. A good built in flash is preferable.

Is there anything else I should be looking at? Good indoor performance, and red eye performance is important. Small size is also a big plus. 3 - 4 MP is fine. AA power is preferred as is CF memory. The high jpeg compression of Kodak and Fuji are kind of a turn off for me. I like to be able to choose the level myself.

Thanks for looking!
sjm817 is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old Dec 26, 2003, 4:08 PM   #2
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 2,162
Default

........The Hot Shoe is a nice option, but honestly, I dont think I would use it.............

I'm afraid redeye is a common problem with most compacts due to the close flash to lens distance. Actually, if you really are hung up on redeye, you may need to think external and bounce flash, but not many compact cams come with a hotshoe. Redeye gets less of a problem as you move the flash head further away from the lens axis. Isn't it strange that the A80 sports the twistabout lcd, but a detachable flash head or wireless linked unit you could hold in your other hand night have been useful as well! Ah well, we can dream!

My 602 doesn't often show redeye and I wondered why everybody else complained - but it's a slr size camera. Then I got a Minolta S414 and now I sympathise with the problem.

.....I like to be able to choose the level myself..........
I'm afraid what your asking for is the continuous level option you get using Windows 'Save as'. I'd love it, but as far as I know all cameras offer only pre-sets with market driven quality terminology to describe quality levels. You have to download camera manuals from their websites and look carefully at the file size created for each quality setting. Biggest range of output file size (less pics per card) at max resolution is what to look for.

I wonder if there's some counter quality going on. When cams first came out, manufacturers believed pics per standard card size was the biz for selling- as memory was expensive and 1Mpix was BIG, RS232 and PC's were slow!. Then in the 2-3 Mpix cams, some manufacturers launched when memory was getting cheaper and file sizes could be bigger with wider finer quality steps, now we have 4/6/12Mpix cams so manufacturers might be up to there old tricks of not wanting a high quality label attached to a large file size and only a handful of pics on a 256Mb card! Not forgetting the problem of supplying a big enough card to get some pics on it out of the box.

I agree, I'd like the choice to lay down a 10 meg file from a 4Mpix cam or better still, a camera which made an intelligent AUTO guess at scene criticality before the save and used bigger files when there was more scene detail. Dream on - Happy new Year VOX

PS I returned a A80 because of CA and poor auto WB on dull days, which we get a lot of in UK! BUT no camera seems without its weaknesses.
voxmagna is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Dec 26, 2003, 4:53 PM   #3
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 160
Default

Yes, it is a problem on MOST but not all compacts. The A60/70/80 are certainly among the ones with a big problem.

The Olympus C4000Z on the other hand, does not have anywhere near the same problem as the A80. Out of over 100 shots with this camera, I saw maybe one or two with some red eye. The A80 had red eye in every single shot. These pics were taken at the same location, The C4000 is a bit larger, maybe considered mid size? The flash is farther from the lens than the A80. That and maybe the design of the flash seem to make a significant difference.

I dont want people to think I'm overly hung up on this one thing, but when you have two cameras and one has red eye issues in 100% of the shots and another, virtually none at all, I think its worth discussing.

Not everyone wants to spend the money on a camera with a hot shoe and another $350 on the flash. Many people dont want to carry that much stuff around, A small camera with a built in flash without red eye issues is a real benefit.

The standard response I see a lot of is all small cameras with built in flash have red eye problems. My experience shows this not to be fully the case. There are some models with a big issue, and others that are very minor.

Yes, I would have gladly traded the swivel LCD for a pop up, detachable or external flash. I really liked the camera otherwise.

So, It looks like I'm going for the C4000. I am curious to see if the C740/750 with the pop up flash also have the good red eye characteristics like the C4000.

Any owners of these cameras like to comment?

Steve's review says this about the C740:
Quote:
Another strong point is the quality of indoor flash pictures, Olympus excells at this task. Pictures of people look very natural and I noticed very little occurence of red-eye.
As far as jpeg compression goes, I like Canon's approach. You have 3 levels normal/fine/superfine which can each be used with any resolution. I think they work out to 1/3/5 bits/pixel. Olympus seems to tier the jpeg quality with the resolution. Best jpeg quality is only available at high res. Kodak and Fuji dont give you jpeg options. An aggressive level of compression is always used.
sjm817 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Dec 27, 2003, 6:56 AM   #4
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 16
Default

Isn't the red-eye issue easily resolved using the Photo Software provided with the camera or by using Adobe Photoshop to edit the image?
ryedizzel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Dec 27, 2003, 8:51 AM   #5
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 160
Default

It can be, but not always. It depends on the shot. On a portrait shot yes, its fairly easy to do and the results can be very good. On a group of people where you are farther away, and the eyes are not all looking at you it can be difficult and time consuming to fix each eye in the shot.

I have shots of 5 people all looking different directions with 10 red eyes. Because of the distance, there is not a lot of pixels and detail to work with, The fix on this type of shot looks unnatural.

If I take a bunch of shots at a kids bithday party, church event, etc, there will be many group shots of people. i dont want to fix every red eye in every shot. It takes a lot of time to do that, I'd rather have a camera that doesn't require all that extra post processing time. Since the Canon will produce red eye in 100% of indoor flash shots, its not the camera for me.


At a recent church play, I took over 60 shots with the camera of the kids in the play. Most shots have 3+ kids in them. All the shots have red eye. Why would I want to fix 60 shots in Photoshop? Lets see, if you do the math, 3 kids x 2 eyes x 60 pics = 360 red eyes to fix. Doesn't sound like much fun does it?

My friend also took pics with the C4000z. No red eyes to fix. Sounds like a better idea to me.
sjm817 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Dec 28, 2003, 6:38 AM   #6
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 16
Default

yah, u make a good point. but dosen't the A80 have a red-eye photo mode? does it reduce the occurance at all?
ryedizzel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Dec 28, 2003, 7:44 AM   #7
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 160
Default

The reduction mode doesn't really help much, if at all.

Been really researching this and the Olympus "C" bodied cameras really seem to be stand out cameras in this respect. From the C20xx, 30xx, 40xx to the 5050. The larger, taller design seems to put the flash far enough away from the lens to not have the big problem most others have.
sjm817 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Dec 28, 2003, 10:57 AM   #8
M69
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 3
Default

I recently got and shipped back a Fuji Finepix A210 camera because of poor red eye reduction. Yes you can use photo editors to fix that, but I do not have the time to fix 30 holiday pics that got ruined by red eyes! :twisted:
M69 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Dec 28, 2003, 6:46 PM   #9
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 2,162
Default

So we all agree then, that redeye must be stopped not fixed in editing and 'reduction' mode isn't effective when you need it. As was posted, my worst scenario is the group shot with lots of eyes. If the camera reduction only works well on close up portrait - well most editors sort that easy.

Changing the physical lens/flash distance seems the only solution. I remember a poster coming up with an idea for a spike which shot out the top of a camera as it was being stolen - Perhaps this needs the flash unit in the top! There was a camera made (early Dimage?) where you could separate the lens from the body. Happy New Year, VOX
voxmagna is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Dec 28, 2003, 6:57 PM   #10
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 160
Default

More bad news (for me). I got back a copy of some pics I took with the Olympus C4000, and this bunch all had red eye issues. So much for that camera being the one for me.

And yes, group shots are a real problem. Close portrait shots are manageable.

The experts here are right. I've tried 3 cameras now and each of them had unacceptable (to me) red eye problems.

The only way around it it seems, is a camera with a hot shoe and an external flash. The problem is, that is a very expensive proposition bordering on DSLR prices. Much more than I was planning on spending.

It is frustrating since I was very excited about getting a new camera. What I want does not seem to exist for the price range I'm looking at.

Any ideas??
sjm817 is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:23 PM.