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Old Sep 17, 2012, 3:35 PM   #31
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Notice though that there is no technical reason that the 6D couldn't have had all the features of the 7D
Well, frame rate is one technical point that is expensive to implement more of. It's also a question as to what internal components would have to be added that are missing and what that would do to overall size. In other words, it may require them shrinking component size to squeeze the same "stuff" into the size of the 6d - and that can have technology issues and costs as well.
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Old Sep 17, 2012, 5:25 PM   #32
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It seems from this page that you can use the dx lenses on the fx cameras with no downside unless I am missing something.
You're missing something.

Yes, you can use a DX lens on an FX body, but the FX body will automatically reduce the area of the image sensor used to record the image down to the size of an APS-C sensor. So while a 'Full Frame' 24MP body using an FX lens will record a 6,016 x 4,016 pixel image, with a DX lens attached, it will only record a 3,936 x 2,624 pixel, or 10MP image.

If all you'll ever do with a 'Full Frame' dSLR is use DX lenses, why not get something smaller, lighter, and cheaper AND that has greater resolution, like the $800 16MP D5100 or the $600 24MP D3200?

And if you'll just use your 'Full Frame' lenses on your 'Full Frame' body, you'd still get better images with your DX lenses by using them with a DX body, which, btw, will work just fine with those 'Full Frame' lenses at their full resolution.

I'm disappointed that none of my associates was willing to point out the error in your logic. I have every reason to believe that JohnG and peripatetic were aware of it. I hate to think they were willing to let you continue to operate under your misconception because correcting you didn't suit their purpose. Perhaps in their frenzy to find a valid reason to disagree with me, they overlooked it.
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Old Sep 18, 2012, 2:32 AM   #33
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You're missing something.

I'm disappointed that none of my associates was willing to point out the error in your logic. I have every reason to believe that JohnG and peripatetic were aware of it. I hate to think they were willing to let you continue to operate under your misconception because correcting you didn't suit their purpose. Perhaps in their frenzy to find a valid reason to disagree with me, they overlooked it.
Yes indeed. You know how we get when we're frenzied.

TCav is correct. Also note that only Nikon has the DX crop mode. Canon does not, and Canon EF-S lenses will not even mount on FF bodies, though 3rd party lenses will mount, but you really don't want to have to crop every shot to correct the vignetting that will result. I don't think the Sony has a DX mode.

Still, what Nikon does allow is an easier upgrade path for their DX to FX users, since your old lenses won't become completely and immediately useless on your shiny new FX body.

Look, I don't think Canon and Nikon are about to drop their APS-C DSLR line immediately. Perhaps not ever. But it's a market that is shrinking dramatically even now. If in 5 years Canon is selling 10% of the APS-C DSLRs it was selling in 2010 I think that will qualify as a real problem for them, and possibly for people like TCav who are convinced of the benefits of APS-C DSLRs.
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Old Sep 18, 2012, 6:50 AM   #34
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I don't think the Sony has a DX mode.
Yep, they do. You can set it manually, or you can let the cameras automatically select DX Mode when they detect you've attached a DX lens.

That stared with the A900, and the newer models have the same crop mode.
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Old Sep 18, 2012, 6:56 AM   #35
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Look, I don't think Canon and Nikon are about to drop their APS-C DSLR line immediately. Perhaps not ever. But it's a market that is shrinking dramatically even now.



From the Camera & Imaging Products Association (CIPA) website's Statistical Data:
  • January '12 worldwide SLR shipments - 798,702
  • February '12 worldwide SLR shipments - 1,145,997
  • March '12 worldwide SLR shipments - 1,441,687
  • April '12 worldwide SLR shipments - 1,196,243
  • May '12 worldwide SLR shipments - 1,407,752
  • June '12 worldwide SLR shipments - 1,661,830
  • July '12 worldwide SLR shipments - 1,613,878
Perhaps it's just me, but that looks like the DSLR market is growing, perhaps even "dramatically". I REALLY don't think that's just a result of 'Full Frame' dSLRs.

(BTW, prior CIPA reports don't distinguish between Reflex cameras with interchangeable lenses and Non-Reflex cameras with interchangeable lenses, so I can't go back any further.)

If you're interested, those same reports also show that DLSRs are still outshipping Mirrorless by at least 4 to 1. And while the Mirrorless market is growing, the P&S market is shrinking.

Mirrorless is NOT eating into DSLR sales. The DSLR market is growing! Mirrorless is eating into P&S sales.
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Old Sep 18, 2012, 8:20 AM   #36
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Having a look at the stats from those pages it appears that TCav is essentially correct.

I did a graph of the number of units shipped, if you look at the value of units shipped the picture is even more in favour of DSLRs.

In Japan the ratio of mirrorless to DSLR climbed rapidly last year, but seems to have stabilised this year with DSLR maintaining a slight advantage of number of units shipped.

Worldwide both DSLR and mirrorless sales are climbing, but clearly the DSLR market is in very good shape at the moment.
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Old Sep 18, 2012, 10:02 AM   #37
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I concur that it is currently. Mirrorless is the new kid on the block with Canon and Nikon just entering the game. I think it's reasonable to assume a lot of buyers buy by brand. Canon and Nikon will still drive what happens to the market as a whole I think. As with any other category, it's not always the "BEST" concept that wins - it's usually other business factors. I think the next 2 years of body announcements from Canon & Nikon should provide a clue as to whether they want to keep APS-C as the major player or if they begin the push toward mirrorless. From a pure photography standpoint there's no benefit APS-C DSLR has over mirrorless. It should be interesting.
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Old Sep 18, 2012, 11:50 AM   #38
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Fair enough. See you here in two years.

P.S.: When peripatetic made a prediction about the market 10 years out ...
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I think we might easily see the market of 10 years dividing the consumer market into essentially camera phones, mirrorless and FX DSLR.
... there was no way I was going to keep track of that, but two years I can do.

P.P.S.: Several years ago, after Sony released the 'Full Frame' A900 in October of 2008 at $2700, one of our members predicted that, in three years, 'Full Frame' dSLRs would be selling for what APS-C dSLRs were then selling for. Three years came and went without anything like what he predicted. I kept a link to that topic, but when Steve's moved from one server to another, that link didn't work anymore, and that member was no longer active here anyway, so I let it pass.
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Old Sep 18, 2012, 11:57 AM   #39
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An interesting sidenote:

Sony announced the 'Full Frame' A850 in August of 2009, for $2000. In the intervening three years, the price for a 'Full Frame' dSLR hasn't changed very much, has it?

Who'd have predicted that?
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Old Sep 19, 2012, 4:20 PM   #40
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I'm jumping in here late but I have some opinions and thoughts about this topic.
First the price of new (and used) FF body's seem to be in reach of more users then ever. Nikon has really lowered the cost of FF and I expect the others to do the same. Good for us.

I don't spend my time researching as much as some of you, but having used many different cameras over the years I can say with confidence that the IQ of my FF cameras is superior to any APS-C camera I have ever used.

I do like the convenience of the smaller body and lenses which has convinced me to also invest in a future mirrorless system.

I am going to keep my FF gear for now, they produce the best IQ especially for portraiture but for other types of photography such as macro or while traveling then the mirrorless systems definitely has an advantage. With the new AF system on the NEX 6, it looks like Sony has taken care of half the problem of their mirrorless system. Now they need to produce some high quality lenses and they'll have quite a small system that takes great images and video.

Maybe someday we'll get a small, mirrorless, interchangeable lens, FF camera.
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