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Old Sep 19, 2012, 5:31 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by TCav View Post
The key point it seems you missed is the smallER, lightER, cheapER.

If a bigger sensor is such a good idea, why stop at 'Full Frame'? What about the Leica S2, or the Pentax 645, or the Phase One bodies, or the digital backs for Hasselblad, Mamiya, Contax and others?
I think I agree with you on this point. Why indeed stop at Full Frame...why not go to Medium Format digital ?

I recall the film days, where I had Leica Rangefinder, Pentax SLR...35mm and Medium Format Mamiya.
The great majority of photographers back then...used 35mm ...very rarely did anyone use Medium Format.

Now with digital...even if a FF is within $ 500 to a $1000 of a very good quality ASP-C SLR....I think that will be enough of a financial gap for most advanced photographers and even some pros to stick with ASP-C.

How many advanced amateurs enlarge beyond 8 X 10 or 11 X 14 ? Given the similar quality end product (actual photo) of a FF and a top quality ASP-C at these photo sizes...is there a real demand for larger FF...or is FF mostly appealing to pros and a small chunk of advanced amateurs ?

Might it be because of the plethora of lenses available for 'Full Frame' bodies? Guess what! APS-C bodies have even more! Might it be becasue of the smallER, lightER, cheapER thing? Guess what! APS-C bodies are even smallER, even lightER, and even cheapER!

I think you make a good point.

My take on this is something that many advanced amateurs may have to confront within themselves and resolve.

For example, I have a whole load of ASP-C lenses for my 3 digital ASP-C SLR bodies. Given that most (few of mine are designed to work on FF) won't be any good on a FF....what do I and many like me do ? Sell at a significant loss and start over ?
For what...is the difference in final photo product (FF vs ASP-C) up to 11 X 14 that much much difference ?

And they provide similar image quality, something that can't be said for Mirrorless systems. (Where are the Extension Tubes and Teleconverters for Mirrorless systems, anyway? Could it be that Mirrorless is just a poor excuse for a system all the way around?)

I've often wondered if Mirrorless is just the latest, greatest bandwagon. Wonder what it's future will be.

My ASP-C SLR system is relatively light, small, etc. Granted a mirrorless is smaller physically...although not a lot smaller than my relatively tiny SLR...a Pentax K-m.
I would rather have, carry and use my Km with a pancake lens...when it comes to carrying a small , useful camera...or my smaller and versatile Canon G 12.

A 'Full Frame' user can feel as superior as he or she wants, but an APS-C user can have more gear, and do the same job with similar results for less money (which is another thing that can't be said for Mirrorless!)

There's nothing magical about 24mm x 36mm.
Exactly. I find I'm not particularly restricted with my ASP-C system. But I do wonder if the price of FF continues to drop...what the future will be in say 5-10 years. Dunno.

Last edited by lesmore49; Sep 19, 2012 at 5:33 PM.
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Old Sep 19, 2012, 5:46 PM   #42
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... But I do wonder if the price of FF continues to drop...what the future will be in say 5-10 years. Dunno.
Every advance in every technology that benefits 'Full Frame' dSLRs also benefits APS-C dSLRs at least as much! APS-C dSLRs have a significant advantage today (except for the advantages that come specifically from a larger sensor and a larger body), and the gap will only get wider as time progresses.

What makes an APS-C dSLR a good choice now, will only make it a better choice later.

And Mirrorless can't compete on image quality, and advances in technology aren't likely to change that as much as the benefits APS-C dSLRs will receive from the same advances. Remember that Mirrorless systems are stuck with the short flange focal distance that makes the cameras so attractive but that make the lenses so expensive and/or perform so poorly.

Mirrorless gives potential P&S buyers the illusion that they're getting an upgrade, but those that consider their choices more carefully are probably the ones that are driving up APS-C dSLR sales faster than the sales of Mirrorless systems.
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Last edited by TCav; Sep 19, 2012 at 5:50 PM.
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Old Sep 21, 2014, 7:12 PM   #43
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I think the next 2 years of body announcements from Canon & Nikon should provide a clue as to whether they want to keep APS-C as the major player or if they begin the push toward mirrorless.
Well, 2 years have come and gone. Let's see what's happened.





Camera shipments continue to drop, especially in the P&S category. (What the heck happens in December?)

But specifically, with regard to JohnG's prediction, in the past two years, the following bodies have been announced:
  • Canon:
    • Full Frame - Canon had just announced the 1D X, 1D C and the 5D Mk III, but within the past 2 years had only introduced the 6D.
    • APS-H - Nothing.
    • APS-C - Canon had just introduced the 60Da and the T4i. Within the past 2 years, it has introduced the T5i, SL1, 70D, T5 and 7D.
    • Mirrorless - In the past 2 years, Canon has introduced the M and M2.
  • Nikon:
    • Full Frame - Nikon had just introduced the D4, the D800/D800E and the D600. Since then, it has introduced the Df, D610, D4s, D610 and D750.
    • APS-C - Nikon had just introduced the D3200, and has since introduced the D5200, D7100, D5300 and D3300.
    • Mirrorless - Nikon had just introduced the J2, and has since introduced the V2, J3, S1, AW1, V3, J4 and S2.
It seems that Canon doesn't seem to want to "push toward mirrorless" as much as Nikon does.

But the shipment figures are clear. Shipments of mirrorless cameras is 20-25% of the shipments of all interchangeable lens cameras, as it has been from when CIPA first started making the distinction. In other words, shipments of mirrorless bodies, as a percentage of shipments of all interchangeable lens bodies, hasn't changed. In addition, with Nikon's and Canon's product offerings, a shrinking category has gotten more fragmented. (That's not good for anyone.)

Also, it seems that Canon is much more committed to the APS-C product line than anything else, while Nikon seems committed to all ILC formats.
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  • The lens is the thing.
  • 'Full Frame' is the new 'Medium Format'.
  • "One good test is worth a thousand expert opinions." - Tex Johnston, Boeing 707 test pilot.

Last edited by TCav; Sep 22, 2014 at 7:17 AM. Reason: sp
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Old Sep 22, 2014, 7:10 AM   #44
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See attachment.
__________________
  • The lens is the thing.
  • 'Full Frame' is the new 'Medium Format'.
  • "One good test is worth a thousand expert opinions." - Tex Johnston, Boeing 707 test pilot.

Last edited by TCav; Sep 22, 2014 at 8:48 AM. Reason: replaced xls file with xlsx file that wasn't permitted when I first posted this. Thanks, JimC.
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