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Old Sep 24, 2012, 1:14 PM   #21
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JohnG, thanks for going through all those lens comparisions, but you missed my point. There are three things going on.
  • Mirrorless lenses cost more than equivalent dSLR lenses. Always.
  • Mirrorless lenses aren't as good as equivalent dSLR lenses. Almost always.
  • Mirrorless lenses are often bigger and heavier than equivalent dSLR lenses.
Yes, the Sony E-Mount 18-55 is smaller than those dSLR lenses you mentioned, but it costs $300, while the others cost ~$200 or less, and it's not nearly as good.

Whatever lens you pick, it will be more expensive for a mirrorless camera than a equivalent lens for a dSLR. In addition, it is very likely to not be as good and/or be bigger and heavier.

And since a Mirrorless camera isn't any less expensive than an entry level dSLR, a Mirrorless System will be more expensive, probably not as good, and it might not even be that much smaller or lighter.

There's only one lens that may be an exception (depending on the system to which it's attached.) That's the Sigma 30mm f/2.8. (The Sigma 19mm f/2.8 might as well, but I haven't seen any test reports for it yet.)
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Old Sep 24, 2012, 1:20 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VTphotog View Post
I think you hit the nail on the head. The author talks about wanting better pictures, but isn't willing to learn what 'all those buttons' are about. Sort of like wanting to fly a plane without bothering to learn what 'all those instruments' are for. At least he isn't likely to kill himself (or others) with a camera.

brian
There is nothing wrong with wanting better pictures but not wanting to learn and control the details about the camera that go into it. The statements are not mutually exclusive.

For example I have worked in IT for 15 years. When I replace a home computer I tend to want to build it myself so that I can control the parts that go into it. That's fine and that produces a fast computer, I am like the DSLR user in this sense. My Dad wants a new computer because his old one is slow, he can go and order one from Dell and because it is new it will be faster and he didn't need to get his hands inside the machine to do it. So he wanted a better experience but didn't want to build it from the ground up, he didn't want to learn and control all the components that go into making a computer fast, he just wanted to plug in and go.
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Old Sep 24, 2012, 1:28 PM   #23
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Probably for the majority of people...DSLR's are not the way to go.

But this forum I would say attracts enthusiast photographers, advanced amateurs and probably a few pro's.

Hardly a beginner group.

In my case I knew nothing about cameras when I got my first SLR in '68. I had to get a 35 mm SLR as a tool required by my job in the publishing field.

It didn't have an internal light meter...everything was manual. It was difficult for me to figure out and if I didn't have some helpful pro photographers at the publishing firm to help me out with the very 'basic' basics...I would have had great difficulty.

But I learned how to use a hand held meter using gray cards, learned DOF, etc. I have and use everything from 35mm Rangefinders + SLR's, medium format systems, DSLR's and I love the art and science of photography.

But I'm not typical...no one else in my family is the least bit interested in cameras, photography.



There have been four friends over the years who wanted to get into SLR's/DSLR's. Two never got beyond the novelty and the other two have become totally immersed into photography...both having bought...and use... DSLR systems.

I've spent a lot of enjoyable time mentoring the two that became very involved in photography.

Maybe having an enthusiastic 'mentor' is the key.
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Old Sep 24, 2012, 2:26 PM   #24
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TCAV, you wrote, and I quote:
Quote:
If the camera is smaller but the lenses are bigger, they're not getting what they're paying for. They're supposed to feel good about that?
So, how did I misunderstand that quote? Speaking only about size, I offered concrete examples where the overall body/lens size is smaller & lighter.

If you did not mean to suggest mirrorless uses bigger lenses then don't say so. Clearly, in the examples above, mirrorless does NOT use bigger lenses.

As far as cost is concerned - like I said, people will pay a small premium to get a smaller form factor. And these are not people that are going to build a 5 lens collection. These are people that are going to use 1 or 2 lenses and that's it.
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Old Sep 24, 2012, 2:54 PM   #25
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Ahh the quest for a smaller camera that will somehow provide the same quality photos as a larger camera.

Is it possible ?

Don't know. I bought a Canon G 12 to carry around, because of it's features, control ability, etc....and it was small...not small enough to stuff in a shirt pocket, unless it was a western shirt...but still small.

I had used a small Pentax DSLR, my K-m ..which at the time...2008-09 was the smallest DSLR with an ASP-C sensor.

But in my need to go smaller I went for the G12.

It's a fine little camera, but the photo's are not in the same league as my K-m.

No surprise...you can't compare a DSLR vs a small sensor camera like the G 12.

So what do I do ? I still take the G 12, or sometimes the K-m depending on my mood.

The future ? I don't know. Experimenting through purchase is expensive.

What I really want is what I had in the film days. I carried around my small, old Leica 35 mm Rangefinder. Put it in my suit inside pocket...or my briefcase.

A bit heavy, but the photo quality was more than competitive with any 35mm SLR back then.

That's what I want.....smaller than a DSLR..even the relatively small K-m... with photo quality as good as a DSLR.

I must add...reasonably priced...modern Leica digital Rangefinders 's are priced out of my league.
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Old Sep 24, 2012, 3:02 PM   #26
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Lesmore.... sounds like you need a Sony RX100..... maybe..?
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Old Sep 24, 2012, 3:23 PM   #27
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JohnG,

That was one set of comparisions. I can do that too.

My point is that Mirrorless will always be more expensive, probably won't be as good, and may not even be smaller and lighter. You skipped right over the first two and jumped all over that "smaller and lighter" thing with one example where it wasn't true.

There's the Sony E-Mount 50mm f/1.8 ($275, 62x62mm, 202g) versus the Sony A-Mount 50mm f/1.8 ($170, 70x45mm, 170g), Canon 50mm f/1.8 ($107, 68x41mm, 130g), and Nikon 50mm f/1.8 ($125, 63x28mm, 145g). There's also the Sony E-Mount 55-210 ($350, 64x108mm, 345g) vs. the Tamron 55-200 ($199, 72x83mm, 295g.)

Similar comparisons can be made for m4/3 vs. 4/3 and APS-C. There are examples where I'm right and there are examples where you're right. But they're always more expensive, and probably not as good. And maybe the size and weight advantage isn't quite what many might have hoped for.
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Old Sep 24, 2012, 3:48 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ramcewan View Post
There is nothing wrong with wanting better pictures but not wanting to learn and control the details about the camera that go into it. The statements are not mutually exclusive.
Yes, they pretty much are. It is like wanting to win races with a car with automatic transmission and ant-skid systems, or wanting to cook gourmet meals by simply opening cans.
I am not saying you need a DSLR to take better pictures, but you do need to learn how to control the details with whichever camera you use. Artistic/aesthetic details may be more important to you than technical details, but both are necessary to achieve really good results.

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Old Sep 24, 2012, 4:22 PM   #29
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G'day all > what a wonderful set of comments for this discussion

Several disjointed thoughts ...
As you know, I run photo workshops thru outback towns in eastern Australia - each year I do about 2-dozen workshops over a 6 - 8 month period

My student 'audience' seems to fall into 1/3 have pocket-sized compacts, 1/3 have fixed-lens superzooms and 1/3 have dSLRs
Many [but not all] of the dSLR people claim with wonder about the superzooms ... "the shop never showed us these" - "gee it's light - wish my camera was like this" etc etc

But we also have a Pentax Kx and a Panny G2 which we use & show people the difference between 'traditional SLR' & 'mirrorless SLR' and nearly all students are impressed with the Panny's smaller size & weight. To pick up on one comment above - yes the Panny 100-300mm lens is almost the same size as the Sigma 70-300mm lens > but wouldn't it be expected to be - after all the diagonal for a 4/3 sensor is about 80% of the APS sensor, thus the lens has to cover much the same area

The real differences come about with the small-sensor, fixed lens jobs like the 24x zoom Panny FZ we have as well, with its [in dSLR terms] 18-420mm all-in-one lens > when we demonstrate that to people, they all want one

We have yet to have a student who exclusively uses their phone, and who wants to discover things like Aperture control for Depth of Field !!

Regards, Phil
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Old Sep 24, 2012, 5:50 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VTphotog View Post
Yes, they pretty much are. It is like wanting to win races with a car with automatic transmission and ant-skid systems, or wanting to cook gourmet meals by simply opening cans.
I am not saying you need a DSLR to take better pictures, but you do need to learn how to control the details with whichever camera you use. Artistic/aesthetic details may be more important to you than technical details, but both are necessary to achieve really good results.

brian
ah now there's the point... Not everyone wants to win the race, most just want to enjoy the ride! I have a very nice set of Wusthof knives but I don't need them to cook a gourmet meal, I can still get that done with a $5 piece of stamped steel from the bargain store.

Metaphors aside I believe good modern cameras have so much photographic knowledge programmed into their auto modes these days that most folks entering into the market are going to be very happy with the photos that come out of the camera, without them having to know how to set it.

As others have pointed to Apple I will also point to their ease of use, people's parents can pick up an Apple and figure it out and have fun and enjoy using it. No they won't be jailbreaking it and tethering to their laptop/tablet or using google voice or any of the things enthusiast do with a smartphone but they will use it and enjoy it, and hey that's alright.

oh damn I'm off on a metaphor again
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