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Old Sep 7, 2002, 8:16 PM   #51
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Robert Eastburg

i did not mean it for you it was directed to lin and even now i regret that also. i just felt that lin came out like a charging rhino and sort of put a bad spin on what could have been a beautiful relationship. i think we all have to lighten up a little. we all are allowed to a opinion valid as all of ours seem to be at this point, accepted or not. we are at the crossroads of photography. some of us are embracing digital quickly. i currently won't because i feel it is too immature. i was involved in sound engineering '76-86 for music and then film. when we started to go digital. a promise delivered it wasn't. it wasn't too fun then from my end. digital left a rather bad taste in the beginning. but it eventually worked most of the kinks out. so will photography. then i'll jump like a base jumper off "the nose" on el cap without a doubt. oh yeah i'm no ansel adams. i've been complimented and damned for the same image on the same day. such is life.

right now it's just signal to noise
translation: the real stuff to the (i think you no what). and i have to figure what the ratio is for me.
so to you and lin i commend the whole hearted the jump in. for now i wil experiment and respect.

ps- the enviornmental aspects are promising.
ps- i love the panorama shot. i was just floating around bass harbor for som kayak and r&r last week going back next year too. i'm going to try a few myself. if the darned tiger mosquitos would let up a little.


[Edited on 9-8-2002 by sjms]
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Old Sep 7, 2002, 9:17 PM   #52
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Rob abd SJ

I agree with both of you

Let me add anpother factor. A LOT of photgraphy is related to hpw a user and her camera intweract. Imogen Cunningham's Rollei was a much part of how she saw as Ansel's black cloth.

Give WeeGee a digicam and he might actually have found it less useful than his Graflex ... or more so.

For me, the small size of my 5070, its near invisibility as a device between me and what I shoot, and the rpaid access to the image are VERY importnat factors no folm camera can rival.
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Old Sep 7, 2002, 11:29 PM   #53
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You get no argument from me about this either. One of the reasons I have so many digicams (20) is that I simply love working with the smaller instruments. No, they don't equal the overall performance of the big removable lens digital SLR's, but there are excellent arguments which say, in effect, how much is "good enough, and where do my personal needs fall within this curve?" The answer to that is that the user must decide for himself or herself about these things.

For my professional work, I use whichever tools work best for the job at hand - whether that be film negative, transparency or digital. I rarely use on of my consumer or prosumer cameras, but there are times when I do. For example, if I'm shooting small art or jewelry, I may use one of my Nikon CP cameras simply because I get better results quicker than with any of my other cameras. If I'm shooting a subject prone to Moire, I use film - either 35mm color, medium or large format depending on the individual job.

For the vast majority of my work which really can be done within the 35mm platform or equivalent, I use mY Kodak DCS-760 or my 1D. If I had a D60 available, I would probably use that instead of the 760.

The problem is very much as sjms says: in effect, we all have different experiences and different backgrounds, and we tend to lean toward what works best for us and what we have experience with.

As I've said before, back in late 1995 I investigated the first available 6 megapixel digital camera in the 35mm platform (the Kodak DCS-460) and I was so impressed with it that I paid what even today seem like an inordinate amount (nearly $30,000) for it. I didn't part with my money without first being certain that it could serve as a satisfactory replacement for the vast majority of my 35mm color film and transparency work. It worked out wonderfully, and I became very interested with the digital "revolution" in cameras. I began buying smaller and less expensive (in the $2000 range) professional level digicams, and eventually prosumer and consumer models. These became both a hobby and a teaching tool for a number of my clients who were considering purchasing their own digicams primarily for capturing web quality images of their inventories and for those jobs which they might be able to do themselves, freeing my time to attend to the more serious photos which required as perfect a color match as possible and for publication quality prints.

This system has worked very well for me, and I buy 2 or 3 new consumer digicams each year. When a major improvement comes along in the professional series, I evaluate my needs and act accordingly.

This rather extensive experience of the last five years has taught me a great deal about the limitations and capabilities of digital, and I try to pass the information along to those who inquire.

If I sometimes come on, as sjms says, "like a rhino," it's not out of mallicious intent, nor from any desire to "put someone's ideas down," but rather because it sometimes saves me lots of keystrokes and time explaining why and how we can apprehend the same situations and arrive at totally different conclusions.

Obviously, many of these arguments are subjective. What one sees as an excellent image, another may hate for various reasons. Things which may bother a perfectionist might be totally ignored by another who has a totally different need or comes from another perspective entirely.

So, if I've offended anyone by being quick on the trigger, I apologize sincerely. I do tend to get testy rather quicker than I did 40 years ago when I was just starting in the business, but chalk that up to advancing age and the general "grumpyness" which comes from having spent too many years in University classrooms trying to impart to youngsters the need for searching out the "truth" as best one can before drawing overarching conclusions. It's more difficult to know what others are thinking and to understand their bias and backgrounds when communicating by forum rather than face to face.

So - sjms - this means we can still go to the prom without any hard feelings :-)

Best regards,

Lin
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Old Sep 8, 2002, 1:10 AM   #54
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Now you've really broken my heart. Lin not only turns out to be a male, but a teacher to boot (and apparently darned near as old as me). Stephen's an artist and sjms is biased by an ancient grudge from the world of sound! Geez, can't I keep any of my illusions?

Seriously, these exchanges, even the well-crafted arguments, are invaluable instruction for me. For an old film photog only 18 months into digital, an amazing amount of good information has come out of this argument.

Love and kisses to the many posters whose posts I have learned to value,

Bob
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Old Sep 8, 2002, 1:13 AM   #55
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ooooh-------ok. friends again. can we hold hands too?

i got the grumpy part down pretty good too. just practicing for now.

where did you teach? i've managed to hang at a few locations of higher learning.

[Edited on 9-8-2002 by sjms]
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Old Sep 8, 2002, 1:19 AM   #56
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R. E.
it isn't too ancient. they still can't get cd players right yet. so they just move on to another debacle- SACD.
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Old Sep 8, 2002, 5:49 AM   #57
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sjms

Don't go there...

Few 'experienced grumpys' may vent their frustration over Sony 'MemorySticking' attempt at SACD over DVD-A as well! But this discussion is very reminiscent of the previous audio revolution, and you can still butthead with some diehard audiophile with $30,000 turntable!

Everyone has a different need, and to a 'pro' every least competitive edge count and with it comes the price and the weight penalty of a dSLR (It can also be the difference of getting the job or not). To others, we're still trying to justify this price and weight penalty, but once we've crossed this 'digital divide' we'll be all like Lin...

[Edited on 9-8-2002 by NHL]
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Old Sep 8, 2002, 8:43 AM   #58
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i ain't goin there. not with this bunch. it's like walking into a minefield.

[Edited on 9-8-2002 by sjms]
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