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Old Feb 22, 2013, 1:52 PM   #31
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ramcewen - yes, you WANT smaller, cheaper and lighter. I get that. What you haven't done is provide a compelling reason why Canon should give it to you. I am not arguing there isn't benefit to smaller,lighter, cheaper. What I'm arguing is a company wants to make money.

When the market was dominated by aps-c, the market didn't change Canon and Nikon's behavior. Canon and Nikon are a business they do not exist to work in your best interests. They work in their own best interests - which means profitability. So, they have to give people enough of what they want to sell products but also sell products with enough margin to stay in the black - and hopefully grow profitability. Canon INCREASED the price of the 70-200 2.8 and it hasn't bitten them. It makes NO BUSINESS sense to chase the budget consumer that wants high end products but doesn't want to pay for them. All you have to do is look at Pentax woes to see where that gets you.

You're also forgetting the R&D costs associated with designing and producing another lens - which would require different tooling and different optics and probably different IS - all with significantly high costs just to appease a budget community that isn't going to help Canon's profitability. When most of that segment is quite happy with the 55-250 lens.

So, what business rationale would canon now have to switch direction? The mirrorless crowd isn't clamoring for a 70-200 2.8 IS II lens.

Remember - where talking about business decisions. and in business competing on price RARELY works. Amazon and WalMart are the exception, not the rule.
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Old Feb 22, 2013, 2:08 PM   #32
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I think pricing is a big issue here.
To suggest that a slight price increase of the top line APS-C model by inserting a full-frame sensor into it would not hurt sales is a reasonable assumption.
However,factor in the cost of extra glass also,would the high end APS-C user be so keen to invest...?
Time will tell...
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Old Feb 22, 2013, 2:20 PM   #33
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ramcewen - yes, you WANT smaller, cheaper and lighter. I get that. What you haven't done is provide a compelling reason why Canon should give it to you. I am not arguing there isn't benefit to smaller,lighter, cheaper. What I'm arguing is a company wants to make money.
Did you read this before you posted it. Do you really think that Canon and Nikon were losing money on each and every APS-C body they made? Did you think they were doing so out of the goodness of their hearts to support the picture taking public with the best they had to offer, right up until they could figure out how to grow 'Full Frame' sensors on trees?

They're making money.

They're making money on their 'Full Frame' products, and they're making money on their 'APS-C' products. My guess is that the profit margin for one isn't a lot different from the profit margin for the other.

Their business is to make what people want to buy, and make a profit doing it.

Shifting focus from from 'APS-C' to 'Full Frame' is a way for Canon to keep the faithful while Nikon seems to capture all the thunder of late. If you're one of the faithful, then you're beside yourself right now, but that doesn't mean the rest of us are out in left field.

Nobody is going to lose and just as important, nobody's going to win at the other's expense. Yes, Canon and Nikon are going to make 'Full Frame' bodies, but not to the exclusion of 'APS-C'. Why? Because people want to buy them.

There always will be a market for mid- and upper level 'Full Frame' dSLRs. But there will also always be a market for mid- and upper level 'APS-C' dSLRs (along with lower level models as well.)

What could possibly make you think any differently?
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Old Feb 22, 2013, 2:24 PM   #34
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To suggest that a slight price increase of the top line APS-C model by inserting a full-frame sensor into it would not hurt sales is a reasonable assumption.
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Forty months ago, Sony introduced a 24MP 'Full Frame' dSLR for $2,000. Six months ago, Nikon introduced a 24MP 'Full Frame' dSLR for $2,000.
... a reasonable assumption? Based on what?
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Old Feb 22, 2013, 2:24 PM   #35
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I think pricing is a big issue here.
To suggest that a slight price increase of the top line APS-C model by inserting a full-frame sensor into it would not hurt sales is a reasonable assumption.
However,factor in the cost of extra glass also,would the high end APS-C user be so keen to invest...?
Time will tell...
Those high end users already use full-frame lenses in most cases because that's the only option they had for top-end optics.

the challenge is the low-end aps-c user that is looking to upgrade. THAT user currently has only crop sensor glass. So, we see Nikon building the "bridge" of the crop mode. Canon has not done that. Again, Nikon just trying to give them a little push
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Old Feb 22, 2013, 2:38 PM   #36
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There always will be a market for mid- and upper level 'Full Frame' dSLRs. But there will also always be a market for mid- and upper level 'APS-C' dSLRs (along with lower level models as well.)

What could possibly make you think any differently?
Observed market behavior. Of people that actually OWN the d300s / 7ds there is only own crowd griping about full-frame and that's birders. Everyone else is happy with full-frame alternatives. If Canon and Nikon can convert the high end users to full frame they don't have to worry about making high end optics in crop format AND they get R&D efficiencies in having a single form factor for their high end DSLRs. PLUS they keep nudging people along the path to buying HIGHER PRICED equipment. Nikon does not want to cater to the segment you represent - the segment that doesn't want to spend. That segment isn't making them profitable. Both Canon and Nikon are testing the waters - pushing higher end users to full frame - locking in higher prices and higher priced lenses. And the market is responding.

Their behavior is being rewarded by the market. Again - the pros are happy. And, the enthusiasts that already owned the d300s or 7d (except for birders) are happy. But the price point is still just a bit too high so they keep mid level aps-c cameras for a while.

So, let's put it to the test - since we're talking about the user base served by d300s/7d market - perhaps a current owner of own of those - who is NOT a birder can jump in and say they won't go full frame or leave canon/nikon if they have to go full.
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Old Feb 22, 2013, 2:50 PM   #37
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Wasn't really talking about what C/N will do. They will continue on as they do now except they will focus more on offering full frame bodies. This makes sense as the majority of users will buy the best they can afford and as I said before the real scam is that the majority of users will end up sticking crop sensor lenses on the cameras and use only half the sensor. Yeah they'll sell a bunch of FF kit lenses but the people purchasing lenses like the 70-200mm will be as they are now a minority.


What I was talking about was the future of what I think people will start buying, and that in my opinion will be smaller lighter and just as good.

Oh and m4/3 users were clamoring for the equivalent of the 70-200mm 2.8 lens, now they have the equivalent of this and the 24-70mm f2.8 in the two Panasonic Lumix lenses; 12-35mm f2.8 and 35-100mm f2.8. The only reason these aren't selling better is because they cost too much compared to the other options for m43.
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Old Feb 22, 2013, 2:56 PM   #38
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.... But there will also always be a market for mid- and upper level 'APS-C' dSLRs (along with lower level models as well.)
I would say yes there will always be a market for entry, mid and upper level crop sensor cameras, I just question how much longer before C/N determines they can make a cheaper/smaller/lighter crop sensor camera by taking out the mirror and OVF. My sense is that there will be a model that comes out that is small and light and cheaper than a comparable mirror containing camera that will basically shift the market. Panasonic has sold a lot of very DSLR like m43 cameras because of video. At some point C/N will make a move to steal this niche back. If they do it right they should be able to offer something better than what the entry/mid level DSLR will in terms of cost, size and weight.
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Old Feb 22, 2013, 3:34 PM   #39
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Observed market behavior. Of people that actually OWN the d300s / 7ds there is only own crowd griping about full-frame and that's birders.
I'd expand that to include many sports/action/wildlife photograpers of all sorts. I'd also include wedding/event photographers. Some of the people I've talked to are quite content with what they've been able to accomplish with their APS-C bodies. Some photographers I know have 'Full Frame' cameras for their studio work, but keep their APS-C gear for location shooting. I concede that 'Full Frame' certainly has it's fans, among them a personal friend of mine, Robert Severi, and someone I converse with occasionally, Brian Smith, both of whom love their 'Full Frame cameras, but they both can afford to pay people to lug their gear around for them.

I think you have a very narrow view of what professional photographers do and want.

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If Canon and Nikon can convert the high end users to full frame they don't have to worry about making high end optics in crop format AND they get R&D efficiencies in having a single form factor for their high end DSLRs.
Why would you think that something new in 'Full Frame' doesn't also benefit 'APS-C'? ... and vice versa?

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Nikon does not want to cater to the segment you represent ...
I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT JUST ME!

I look forward to when you stop talking about just you.
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Old Feb 22, 2013, 3:36 PM   #40
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... a reasonable assumption? Based on what?
Tcav- it wasn't my assumption....
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