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Old Feb 22, 2013, 3:51 PM   #41
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It's interesting really that C/N are indeed dipping their toes into the "affordable" full frame market (or rather creating it...) as opposed to improving the capabilities of the APS-C sensor (compared to FF). I would have thought this might have been the less expensive option...
Curiously,I've no doubt,however,that in a couple of years an APS-C sensor will perform as well as a slightly older FF sensor- as has been the case in other sensor formats- ever improving over previous generations.
Which kinda begs the question- do Nikon/Canon think that APS-C sensors have reached their limit with regards performance..? If not,then the move to an affordable FF might seem,well,curious at least... especially when Canon/Nikon are currently in a profitable business,despite the current economic climate.
Might they be over-thinking economic strategy...? I hope not...!
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Old Feb 22, 2013, 6:51 PM   #42
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Well the FF cameras may be going up in price but look at the ASP-C camera. The Pentax K-5 ii and the iiS are selling cheaper than the K-5 did when it came out with several tweaks to make them better cameras. I think within 3 years we will see each company have less offerings on the low end offering a mirrorless or 4/3, an ASP-C for entry level and then 1 or 2 FF cameras at the top. I do not think ASP-C will ever totally go away until the rice of FF gets down to where normal people can afford them and the lenses needed for them. I for one make decent m,oney from photography but can not afford Cannon's 1Dx or 5D Markiii and the lenses needed for them so I went the pentax route and very happy with what I got for the bucks I spent., Yeah I could get better gear if I could afford it and until Nikon and Canon get the price of there FFs and lenses down there will always be a need for ASP-C cameras
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Old Feb 23, 2013, 1:08 PM   #43
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At its infancy, nobody in my socio-economic neighborhood could afford a digital camera, regardless of the number of pixels its sensor had. Look what's happened in ten years. We have the full frame sensors in 2,000 dollar cameras. Had there even existed a full frame sensor ten years ago, it would most likely cost in the tens, if not hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Anybody remember the first "pro" Nikons? APS sensor, camera cost $5,000, this was 1999. 2.7 megapixel.

My humble opinion is, that full frame (35mm) will become the next boom in the camera market. The aps sensors will ultimately be relegated to fixed lens cameras. High end fixed lens cameras will be available with 35mm sensor. If you think about where we've been, my forecast isn't too insane to come to pass.
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Old Feb 23, 2013, 1:26 PM   #44
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'Full Frame' doesn't actually have many real advantages over 'APS-C', and it will always be bigger, heavier, and more expensive. It will never again enjoy the status it had in the days of 35mm film.
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Old Feb 25, 2013, 8:45 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TCav View Post
If I answer #7 with "I'm not interested at all", why do I still have to answer #8 and #9?
Read through that survey and as with most surveys they are not asking for your opinion. They are working on changing your mind, making you feel that full frame is the way to go. This is very close to what I do when Hypnotizing someone. Never tell someone directly to change their mind but guide them toward a new way of thinking. Another example in is type of surveys is the one you get from the new car dealership. No matter how mad you may be with the dealership you just bought your car from there is no way of answering the survey without sounding positive. Now you have answered the dealerships survey, everything you answered was positive and now you start feeling better about the dealership. At least until you need warranty work done but that is another subject.

This thread is a great read, lots of very insightful thoughts being posted in this thread.
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Old Feb 25, 2013, 9:40 AM   #46
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Read through that survey and as with most surveys they are not asking for your opinion. They are working on changing your mind, making you feel that full frame is the way to go. This is very close to what I do when Hypnotizing someone. Never tell someone directly to change their mind but guide them toward a new way of thinking. Another example in is type of surveys is the one you get from the new car dealership. No matter how mad you may be with the dealership you just bought your car from there is no way of answering the survey without sounding positive. Now you have answered the dealerships survey, everything you answered was positive and now you start feeling better about the dealership. At least until you need warranty work done but that is another subject.
I have no doubt that's true on some level, but I'm also a big believer in this:
Quote:
Never ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence.
- Napoleon Bonaparte
Thus, I believe that most surveys are written by fools and idiots, and if I'm given the opportunity, I will try to educate the survey author.
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Old Feb 25, 2013, 10:49 AM   #47
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Thus, I believe that most surveys are written by fools and idiots, and if I'm given the opportunity, I will try to educate the survey author.
I like that frame of thought.
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Old Feb 25, 2013, 11:38 AM   #48
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'Full Frame' doesn't actually have many real advantages over 'APS-C', and it will always be bigger, heavier, and more expensive. It will never again enjoy the status it had in the days of 35mm film.
To me that hits the nail on the head, full frame will always be bigger, heavier and more expensive especially when including lenses.

Given the ever increasing performance of crop sensors, APS or 4/3 or even smaller CX/1" type sensors, the size and cost advantages soon out weigh the benefits of the larger sensor.

Again let's run the numbers;

24-70mm f/2.8 ~ $2,200 1.78 lbs
70-200mm f2.8 ~ $2,200 and 3.28 lbs
EOS 6D ~$2100 and 1.7 lbs
----------------------------
~$6500 and ~7 lbs


Lumix 12-35 (24-70mm equiv) ~$1100 and 0.75 lb
Lumix 35-100 (70-200mm equiv) ~$1300 and 0.75 lb
OM-D EM-5 ~ $900 and 0.94 lb
-----------------------------------
~$3300 and under 2.5 lbs


Lumix FZ200 - 25-600mm equiv f2.8
---------------------------------------
~$450 and 1.3 lbs


So for half the cost I can go with m4/3 and for less than a tenth the cost I can go with a super zoom bridge.

How many people really need the extra performance of the full frame sensor? Very few in my estimation.
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Old Feb 25, 2013, 11:51 AM   #49
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There is one advantage to the larger format, and that is the narrower DOF (for a given focal length), which is useful in some situations. In others it is a disadvantage, so the question (disregarding cost and weight) is whether you really need the shallower DOF, and the ability to pack more pixels.
Of course, Medium Format goes even further in that direction, but the two big camera makers don't have MF cameras. If they did, you would see many, many posts by the fan boys extolling their virtues, and why we are all a bunch of barely competent snapshooters for not having one.

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Old Feb 25, 2013, 12:26 PM   #50
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As with anything there is always a trade-off. The notion that every photographer would be equally served with either a D600 or a OMD-EM-5 is just silly. Neither camera is better than the other - they're different and the SYSTEMS are different.

Without a doubt if size/weight are a primary concern then full-frame is likely not for you.

Here's what I can say as someone who has used APS-C, APS-H and full frame:
1) For the type of shooting I do, I find the full frame provides a better angle of view with 2 of my primary lenses - 24-105L and 70-200L. When I shot aps-c I had to swap the 24-105 out and 17-40 in a lot more. Canon also has a couple 24-70 lenses which are quite useful (and the new 24-70 2.8 II is really outstanding). So, given how the manufacturers are actually MAKING lenses - full frame works better for me. Sure they could have produced lenses more with aps-c in mind but they didn't.

2. No doubt I like how APS-H and full frame allowed for me to get shallow DOF - especially inside - where you can't always back away from your subject. Using APS-H and full frame allowed me to use my 85mm 1.8 more for indoor shots were aps-c required a 50mm.

3. noise, dynamic range are almost always better with same generation full frame sensor vs. aps-c. Compare D600 (24mp full frame) to D5200 (24mp aps-c) - the full frame bests the aps-c in every category - significantly so in ISO. No doubt there are difference as you cross brands (i.e. Canon's sensor development lags Sony/Nikon). Within Canon if you compare 5dIII to 650d again the full frame sensor bests it.

Now - does every shooter need those? Nope. Not at all. And I do firmly believe that the vast majority of users will eventually go to mirrorless cameras (with aps-c or smaller sensor) once those systems mature in a couple more generations.

For what it's worth I "downsized" to the 5diii from 1dIII to get a smaller camera (as well as sensor and AF improvements) so I completely understand what is being said here regarding size. It's a consideration. For my needs and style of shooting I preferred to stay within Canon or Nikon and given my lenses there wasn't a compelling enough reason to switch to Nikon. And even if the rumored 7d were to come out, based upon my personal criteria I prefer the 5dIII over the rumored specs of the 7d (keeping in mind the performance of canon's sensors I don't predict the 7d sensor will outperform what they're using in the 1dx / 5diii). It doesn't mean other shooters don't have valid criteria for making a different choice.
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