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Old Jan 16, 2018, 6:16 PM   #11
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I believe the original quote is meant to suggest that photography is about the eye and what the brain perceives from what it sees.

But Photography is about RECORDING what we see and perceive, and to do that, we need a lens. The recording medium can be anything, but the lens is what makes photography possible. The brain is NOT a photographic medium. What has been demonstrated time and time again is that the only thing the brain can do with any degree of reliability is FORGET, so the eye and the brain and memory have nothing to do with photography.
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Old Jan 16, 2018, 6:16 PM   #12
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I think what he means is this....
You can put me in the state of the art F1 Racing Car worth millions of pounds and I still would finish last in every race. Thus proving that no matter how good and expensive your equipment is, if you have no talent or aptitude, then you will be still be crap.
I meet so many people who genuinely believe that a better camera means better photographs...but all this means is that their shit shots will be sharper.
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Old Jan 16, 2018, 6:28 PM   #13
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What was intended, what was stated, and what was interpreted are three very distinct things. If they all correlate closely, understanding has been achieved.
In the same way, what a photographer sees, the resulting photograph, and what the viewer gets from it, are three separate things. If the viewer's understanding of the meaning is close to what the photographer was trying to convey, the photo is successful.

Of course, I have yet to see a photograph taken without a camera of some sort.
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Old Jan 16, 2018, 9:04 PM   #14
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"An accomplished photographer was invited to a dinner party. The hostess praised the photographer's work and commented that he must have a really good camera. Later, when dinner was finished, the photographer praised the meal and commented that the hostess must have a really good stove."

I believe I read this here a while ago, and the appropriateness of it stuck with me.
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Old Jan 17, 2018, 8:26 AM   #15
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@TCav . . . I've heard that "allegory" (Is that an appropriate label?) about the photographer and the cook before. And it really does illustrate the point well. How often we've each come across that. LOL.

But sometimes I do think it is about the camera! LOL. Like when I take pictures of my daughter's cheer team, when people see the pictures, they say . . . you must have some awesome camera . . . to which I say, yes, yes I do. And . . . actually . . . I guess in that case, indoor sports, less than ideal light, trying to freeze motion and no flash allowed . . . the better a lens and the better the camera I have . . . the better I can freeze the motion and capture clear pictures of the athletes, I guess. So . . . often it is not about the camera, but sometimes it is? LOL.

Also, your point about needing a lens. Someone else above in the thread pointed out that you can take a picture without a lens, meaning a pinhole camera. Someone else pointed out that maybe that is still a lens. I looked up the definition of what a lens is, and it mentions a clear translucent material, but then you have things like these new metal lenses that don't have glass.

https://www.dpreview.com/news/465712...s-we-know-them

So . . . does a lens need glass to be considered a lens? LOL. I think the definition of what a lens is is probably going to be re-written soon. LOL.

But also, there are those cyanotype photograms where artists take objects like leaves and record them onto photosensitive surfaces without lenses. Would that be considered photography?

How about this . . .

http://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-20181153

Full size / life size nude photograms.

Or . . . tech-wise . . . there is this . . .

https://lens.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/...l-photography/

Take care!
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Old Jan 17, 2018, 9:31 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulV.Mitchell View Post
I think what he means is this....
You can put me in the state of the art F1 Racing Car worth millions of pounds and I still would finish last in every race. Thus proving that no matter how good and expensive your equipment is, if you have no talent or aptitude, then you will be still be crap.
I meet so many people who genuinely believe that a better camera means better photographs...but all this means is that their shit shots will be sharper.
I think it might even mean more than that.

To keep with your car race analogy, racing might not be about the car.

For the driver, maybe its about the fame.

For the engineers, maybe its about the achievement of creating an amazing racing machine or a new way to approach racing.

For the company that finances the creation of the vehicle, maybe its about the bragging rights and the positive marketing potential of good results.

For the fans, maybe its about the entertainment.

Now, take that driver out of that car, and put him into a speed boat.

All the things above can remain the same.

So . . . sometimes racing is not about the car.

So, not specifically about whether a good car or a bad car is required to "win", but sometimes racing has nothing to do with racing.

Sometimes photography can be about everything else.

About the human condition. About trying to make things better. About being involved.

Another quote I came across again lately was the Capa quote.

"If your photos aren't good enough, you're not close enough."

There are different ways to take that . . .

In some ways it pays to get right in there, on another note, I like this comment from this post . . .

"Several photographers said that over time, they decided that Capa’s adage is a demand not for proximity but for empathy. "

https://pdnpulse.pdnonline.com/2013/...ean-today.html

I guess, if you take the above interpretation of Capa's quote, then . . . the quote itself is not about the camera. LOL.

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Last edited by tacticdesigns; Jan 17, 2018 at 10:03 AM.
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Old Jan 17, 2018, 1:35 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tacticdesigns View Post
... Also, your point about needing a lens. Someone else above in the thread pointed out that you can take a picture without a lens, meaning a pinhole camera. Someone else pointed out that maybe that is still a lens. [That was also me, btw. -TCav] I looked up the definition of what a lens is, and it mentions a clear translucent [Emphasis mine. -TCav] material ...
From the Wikipedia article Transparency and translucency:

"In other words, a translucent medium allows the transport of light while a transparent medium not only allows the transport of light but allows for image formation."

So a lens made of translucent material would NOT form an image. Thus, the definition you referenced is flawed.

And, last I checked, air is transparent (Los Angeles notwithstanding), and thus would allow for the formation of an image, and so could be a lens. And even if we take a pinhole camera outside the atmosphere, similarly, a vacuum is transparent, so an image would continue to be formed. (The speed of light is often given with a caveat that it is moving through a vacuum, so obviously, a vacuum must be transparent. Compare that with the speed of light through a brick wall, which would be zero.)

I had hoped that Sony, in referring to its semi-transparent mirror as "Translucent", would be the only such distortion of the meaning of the word, albeit a trademark and as such can be distorted to any degree Sony thinks appropriate, and I vehemently oppose any other similar distortion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tacticdesigns View Post
... But also, there are those cyanotype photograms where artists take objects like leaves and record them onto photosensitive surfaces without lenses. Would that be considered photography?

How about this . . .

http://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-20181153

Full size / life size nude photograms.

Or . . . tech-wise . . . there is this . . .

https://lens.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/...l-photography/
Again, from the Wikipedia article on Photography:

"Photography is the science, art, application and practice of creating durable images [Emphasis mine. -TCav] by recording light or other electromagnetic radiation, either electronically by means of an image sensor, or chemically by means of a light-sensitive material such as photographic film."

So, yes, since the images are durable and are created by recording light, they fall under the definition of photography, as would copy machines, btw.
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Old Jan 17, 2018, 2:10 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TCav View Post
From the Wikipedia article Transparency and translucency:

"In other words, a translucent medium allows the transport of light while a transparent medium not only allows the transport of light but allows for image formation."

So a lens made of translucent material would NOT form an image. Thus, the definition you referenced is flawed.
+1

Sorry. My bad! LOL.

Sorry for the typo.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TCav View Post
And, last I checked, air is transparent (Los Angeles notwithstanding), and thus would allow for the formation of an image, and so could be a lens. And even if we take a pinhole camera outside the atmosphere, similarly, a vacuum is transparent, so an image would continue to be formed. (The speed of light is often given with a caveat that it is moving through a vacuum, so obviously, a vacuum must be transparent. Compare that with the speed of light through a brick wall, which would be zero.)

I had hoped that Sony, in referring to its semi-transparent mirror as "Translucent", would be the only such distortion of the meaning of the word, albeit a trademark and as such can be distorted to any degree Sony thinks appropriate, and I vehemently oppose any other similar distortion.



Again, from the Wikipedia article on Photography:

"Photography is the science, art, application and practice of creating durable images [Emphasis mine. -TCav] by recording light or other electromagnetic radiation, either electronically by means of an image sensor, or chemically by means of a light-sensitive material such as photographic film."

So, yes, since the images are durable and are created by recording light, they fall under the definition of photography, as would copy machines, btw.
+1

LOL.

Nice to have some references.

I just found these little links interesting and thought it might move the conversation forward.

Take care!
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Old Jan 17, 2018, 4:27 PM   #19
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"So . . . does a lens need glass to be considered a lens?"

A lens is something which can bend the path of light. Water droplets qualify. So does gravity, according to A. Einstein, with experimental verification. Any change of the medium through which light travels can refract it, making a lens. High magnification microscopes use (or used to use, anyway) oil lenses.
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Old Jan 17, 2018, 5:43 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VTphotog View Post
"So . . . does a lens need glass to be considered a lens?"

A lens is something which can bend the path of light. Water droplets qualify. So does gravity, according to A. Einstein, with experimental verification. Any change of the medium through which light travels can refract it, making a lens. High magnification microscopes use (or used to use, anyway) oil lenses.
+1

I'm trying to understand this "metal" lens.

https://www.dpreview.com/news/465712...s-we-know-them

Is that glass with metal pillars on it? Or is it completely metal?

Either way, I think its the metal "fins" that are bending the light, not any substrate, even if the substrate is clear.

I'm not really sure how that works.

Take care,
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