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Old Oct 6, 2002, 5:18 PM   #1
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Default D SLR choice, too difficult wait/buy, help me please

Ok let's go:

<<<- Fuji S2pro ->>>

PRO

> High resolution: 12mp interpolated, real about 8mp
> High detail, Fuji colors
> NIKON F mount (many digicam actual and future use this...i will have more choice)
> External flash contact X HOT SHOE, that support cheap flash
> Cheap rechargeable batteries NI-Mh
> Firewire and USB connection (may be useful, but actually i don't have a firewire port)
> Fast operation
> Five area AF
> 3d matrix exposure metering
> Grid lines in viewfinder

CONS

> Body design, not function and ed ergonomic but big size and aesthetic (for me of course)
> Two separate sets of batteries, one is NOT rechargeable. If you want you don't use internal flash and use only one set of batteries Ni-mh
> Short life Batteries (in conparison to NIKON and CANON)
> Batteries and charger NOT included in box. (increase price)
> It's not sure that all CF work correctly
> focal multiplier 1.5x
> Viewfinder coverage 92%
> 0.5 EV steps (NIKON 0.3)
> 2 FPS in continuos shooting (3 FPS NIKON)
> Weight 760gr, big body size
> HIGH price (2239 + iva) body only

FUTILITY

> CONS- LCD cover not trasparent useless
> CONS- Orange Display , I don't like it


<<<- NIKON D100->>>

PRO

> Body design, function, ergonomic, body size and aesthetic (for me of course)
> NIKON F mount (many digicam actual and future use this...i will have more choice)
> 3 FPS in continuos shooting
> 0.3 EV steps
> 3d matrix exposure metering
> Five area AF
> Viewfinder coverage 95%
> ONE battery
> Batteries and charger included in box
> Very long life battery
> Fast operation
> Grid lines in viewfinder
> Weight 700gr and right body size
> Low price (2056 +iva) body only

CONS

> 6mp, low detail, soft look images! at 100%
> External flash contact X only, that not support cheap flash
> focal multiplier 1.5x
> High price battery

FUTILITY

> PRO- LCD traspearent cover, useful
> PRO-Frames remaining counter active also when digicam is off



<<<-CANON D60->>>

PRO

> Body design, body size and aesthetic (for me of course)
> 3 FPS in continuos shooting max 8 images
> Right body size
> long life battery (less than d100)
> View throw viewfinder is slightly bigger than others
> Batteries and charger included in box
> Viewfinder coverage 95%
> External flash contact X HOT SHOE, that support cheap flash

CONS

> No grid lines in viewfinder
> NO Adobe RGB colour space
> EOS mount (good glass but only canon use it..i'm sorry)
> focal multiplier 1.6x
> High price battery
> Slow operation
> 3 area AF
> Weight 852 gr.
> HIGH price(2239 + iva) body only

FUTILITY

> CONS- NO LCD cover


<<<-KodaK DCS 14n->>>

Form me it's a very good camera but it's only a s2pro with a fantastic full frame CMOS sensor...beacuse:

PRO

> High resolution: 14mp
> High detail
> Full Frame sensor
> No Focal multiplier
> Body design, and aesthetic (for me of course)
> 3d matrix exposure metering
> big buffer size
> ONLY Firewire connection (may be useful, but actually i don't have a firewire port)
> Nikon F mount (many digicam actual and future use this...i will have more choice)
> 5 area AF (i think it's enough for me)
> ONE battery

CONS

> Very big body size
> 2 FPS in continuos shooting
> 0.5 EV steps
> Viewfinder coverage 95% (for this price i want more)
>Weight 907 gr.
> External flash contact X only, that not support cheap flash
> Very HIGH price about 4000$







[Edited on 7-10-2002 by effector]
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Old Oct 6, 2002, 5:19 PM   #2
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Default now...

there is also sigma sd9..but i don't know that its resolution is enough to print without problem in A3...and i don't like to use only sigma lens...tell me something about this camera (yes i see many threads about this...)




ok ..now...

i print max in A3+ with my epson photo 1290...so i need a camera that has detail at this print size...so

if d100 isn't too soft in a3 i prefer this digicam
if d100 don't need too much post-shot work..i prefer this

otherwise ther is fuji s2pro..good phot but really i don't like it's power solution and esthetic!

tell me something please.

I can wait...i can wait february 2003 max..but i don't like to wait...so if nikon has something interest for me i wait...but i can't spend more than 2600...

Or if sigma has a foveon x3 at 6mp ...i can wait...but i don't know

....Yes.. sure.... like all digital world...wait is never a good idea...but now..a full frame sensor for me is really a turning point. I'm an architect so i often use wide...and focal 1.5x is a bad thing for me..but not too bad because i also like portrait shot.

I think that a camera with a full frame sensor can live at least 2-3 years in my hands, but i don't know if it's the same with a non full frame sensor.

I can't spend 3000 every year!!! it's impossible .
I woul like a camera that live at least 2-3 years.


...Then
I often shoot architecture picture, so no moving subject.
This also by night with my old dear manfrotto's tripod.
This is for my work and passion.


But i also like surpire photo..to my girl (yes..yes actually after five year this love is finished.. but the show must go on..no?) my family, my big cat...

...or everywhere I can make mine a special moment..i really like ..take the moment.

So i prefer light digicam with a good feel in my hands.
My previous camera was olympus c 2500L now it's obsolete

---
ah sorry another thing...actually i have no glass...for this reason i prefer nikon mount





[Edited on 7-10-2002 by effector]
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Old Oct 6, 2002, 6:51 PM   #3
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I have the Fuji S2 Pro and love it! As for your statement about low battery life, I feel is wrong. 700-800 images with 1800 niMH's should be easy, slightly less if you don't use the CR 123's.

CR 123's about US$1.25ea at http://www.botachtactical.com/toscr123a3vo.html
and last about 1000 pictures.


No need to buy software for converting RAW (RAF) images.

PC flash contact provided on the body. Supports normal TTL flash exposures.

I believe the Sigma is still "vapor ware" and not available as yet. I've seen some pre-production pictures taken with it but no actual photos, and your stuck with Sigma lenses.
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Old Oct 6, 2002, 9:49 PM   #4
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i'll be seeing the DCS Pro 14n at the end of the month. it seems to have more usable features than any other Dslr. as to the 95% viewfinder you want a bigger prism you get a bigger/heavier camera
yep the frame rate is a little lame but then again so are all of them. the key is power. both processor and battery. you want full frame and high speed slap in dual pentium 4s and a car battery at this point. its getting better another year or 2 and it will be 5fps.

sounds like your looking for a digital F5. you and me both. i'll struggle along with the DCS 14n for a few years.

the d100 has a lcd cover with it
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Old Oct 7, 2002, 2:05 AM   #5
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The first question is ...

Do you need a dSLR? The current top prosumer cams are quite capable of the printsize you describe and their zoom lenses will cover the range yu need.

Interchageable lenses on the crop-frame dSLRs are dubious. You throw away a good part of the vlaue of the lens. Also, a lot of the intrinsic properties of optics that were so important with film ... the feel of the lens, it subjective value, mean less with digital than with film.

It si very importnat to understand that the foveon's pixels have much more resolution than the pixels in a conventioanl camera. The conversion is complex, but the Foven, pixel by Pixel, may be up to 3X sharper than other cams because other chips need three pixels to do the work of one in a foveon.

Mt advice: try a dimage 7hi and a coolpix 5700. see if they "do the job" if they do, you have saved yourself 1-2000.
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Old Oct 7, 2002, 4:02 AM   #6
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Default thanks but...

Quote:
Originally posted by Steves
The first question is ...

Do you need a dSLR? The current top prosumer cams are quite capable of the printsize you describe and their zoom lenses will cover the range yu need.

Interchageable lenses on the crop-frame dSLRs are dubious. You throw away a good part of the vlaue of the lens. Also, a lot of the intrinsic properties of optics that were so important with film ... the feel of the lens, it subjective value, mean less with digital than with film.

It si very importnat to understand that the foveon's pixels have much more resolution than the pixels in a conventioanl camera. The conversion is complex, but the Foven, pixel by Pixel, may be up to 3X sharper than other cams because other chips need three pixels to do the work of one in a foveon.

Mt advice: try a dimage 7hi and a coolpix 5700. see if they "do the job" if they do, you have saved yourself 1-2000.
I think that I don't need a DLSR, but I want it.
I'm not an expert, i'm not a freelance or other professional of photography.

So i prefer a glass with an wide focal lenght excursion (forgive me if this isn't correct word).

As i write i like take the moment. I don't like to take with me an heavy bag with many glass..

just opinion i know that for a professional this is orrible .

I want to learn more about photography, so i want a DSLR, i want to use it totally, but i can't start in 4th gear, i prefer to start with a wide range of possibility.

I don't want an artificial SLR like nikon 5700 or dimage 7hi...i want to learn..about this world and about my passion.

Then..about foveon...i know that a pixel is not a pixel..but can you tell me if a printed image from bayer 6mp has a level of detail "identical" to 3mp foveon x 3?
And a 12mp bayer will be= 6mp foveon?





[Edited on 7-10-2002 by effector]
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Old Oct 7, 2002, 8:18 AM   #7
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coming from the world of slrs for 29 years i can tell you that a D7i/Hi is as close as your going to get to a true slr operation for under $4000US w/o lens w/o mag factor right now. i'll admit accessing some features is a little different than the big ones but that just like learning a ne slr
this is what i've used/owned over the years.
Analog
OM1,2,3,4T
Nikon 4s, 5, N90s Nikonos V
for glass i have from 20-450 mm
Digital
Nikon 950 990
used/rented nikon Nikon D1h/x
owned/own
Minolta Dimage 7 7i 7hi

the reason i have the minolta 7Hi
it feels like an slr at acts pretty much like one too
instead of a push button zoom it has the stantard helical type zoom
the lens is the equiv to a 28-200mm w/o aux lenses. it has 2 levels of macro norm and wide.
full auto full manual capability and every permutation in between. this is the closest to a true slr in my opinion your going to get for under $1000US

i understand your want to jump in the deep water. thats fine if your willing to compromise right now and pay the piper. your investment will be rather high. their not going to get smaller really. the dsc isnt much larger than my n90s except at the base for the battery(the power supplies for phasers are still under developement at this time)

foveon- i have used the foveon prototype camera when it was a basic box splitter prism and 3 sensors with a canon lens mount attached to a laptop. the results were nothing less than astounding. the current version is now a single chip assy. it has come a long way in 5 years. BUT it is still a small sensor. it has a mag factor of 1.7. me, i don't mind sigma lenses i have 2. they do the job quite well. i agree with Steves if it isn't full frame it isn't for me.

"I don't want an artificial SLR like nikon 5700 or dimage 7hi...i want to learn..about this world and about my passion"

photography- is not just hardware. i walked all over the world with various equipment hung off my neck and shoulders. the only thing i really got was a sore neck and rotator cuff issues now. oh yeah, an occasional bunch of pictures that i liked too.
what do you think you will learn from a dslr/slr that eisenstadt didn't from his leica M3?.
remember this is what you do with a camera:
you generally point, frame, and shoot. your eye and brain do the work
if you want to be an art photographer it makes no real difference. you may want to take more control and thats available on all of the above. ref this gallery:

http://www3.photosig.com/photos.php?cameraId=329

i'll admit i do not do what these people do because i have a different mindset on shooting. their eye and brain did the work with the tools they had available.

i like my hardware too. but every now and then i draw a line and wait. and then cross it when i feel its worth it. and that is when i get a true return on the investment both monitarily and in this case technically.

sorry long winded








[Edited on 10-7-2002 by sjms]
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Old Oct 7, 2002, 9:04 AM   #8
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looks like you did some research...how bout trying it hands on?...have you hold them yourself yet?...if not, go to a local shop and rent one for a few days if you can...that should give you answer!...my 2cents
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Old Oct 7, 2002, 10:46 AM   #9
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Before anyone goes off thinking that the new Kodak Pro 14n is big or heavy ... here's some comparison pictures of the Pro 14n and the "other" current dSLR cameras. It's the smallest and lightest DCS Pro camera that Kodak has ever made.




















-Steve
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Old Oct 7, 2002, 10:50 AM   #10
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thanks for the comp pics. i take it we are playing with a dcs 14n now?

[Edited on 10-7-2002 by sjms]
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