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Old Sep 21, 2005, 8:49 PM   #1
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I decided to wait on Steve's review on the KM5D, but in the wait, I have been reading a bit more. Other than the aint-shake package, it seems that the flash sync speed is the big difference. The Nikon line has a flash sync speed listed of 1/500,, and the KM series shows 1/160 with AS off and 1/125 with AS on. I am just a hobby shooter trying to get better, and get away from my no frills G600 KM camera.

Can anybody tell me in real world terms, and real world situation, what is the real deal and real difference in shooting, between theese numbers. My intended use of the camera that I finally choose will be to shoot at car shows, air shows, shoot wildlife in zoos, kids in the yard, and after I can put up a few MORE nickles, my wife would like me to buy some stuff to set up a simple home studio to shoot our own portraits and portraits of the kids. She wants ME to do it so she doesn't have to pay the lady down the street again.... Please, someone, put me out of my misery.

Thank You Oh So Much

Michael Grace

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Old Sep 23, 2005, 10:35 PM   #2
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mikesjoint wrote:
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Can anybody tell me in real world terms, and real world situation, what is the real deal and real difference in shooting, between theese numbers.
I am not too sure about what you want more precision, but in general :

You can't use the flash with a speed higher than the sync speed , if so, the flash effect on the taken picture can be not event.

This is caused by the fact that the shutter , which may be a "curtain" (focal plane shutter) , can not expose the CCD (or the film) at 100% when the flash fired. In these kind of shutter, "higher speed" are obtained by moving a slit over the CCD (or the film) to redure the exposure time , thus obtaining the same exposure time at every point on the film surface. (mechanically, it's hard to open 100%, wait just 1/1000 sec, and close 100% , there are inertia in mechanical parts)

It should not be an anoyance in ordinary shooting, since you rarely need a super fast speed for taking people pic with flash. You even want not too high speed to preserve ambiance scene (to avoid having just the subject lighted, and backgroud dark as a no moon night :G)

But there are other (special) situations that you want high speed exposure, so the flash have to sync at that speed too.

Some dedicated flash can sync at very high speed with the corresponding camera, the flash emits a serie of short flash pulses as the curtain travel across the film plane, so garanty that each "slit" sweeped will receive the same "dose" of flash light.

My explanation seems not that clear :G, and don't know if it anwser your question :?, but I am sure that I will find a website to show this.




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Old Sep 23, 2005, 11:06 PM   #3
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Some links:

http://www.steves-digicams.com/2005_...ikon_d70s.html
http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/syncspeed.htm
http://www.photozone.de/3Technology/flashtec5.htm
http://www.planetneil.com/faq/flash-sync.html

read about the advantage of having a high sync speed: fill flash on bright scene (sunny day exterior shooting , etc ...)
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Old Sep 24, 2005, 9:50 AM   #4
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mikesjoint wrote:
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I decided to wait on Steve's review on the KM5D, but in the wait, I have been reading a bit more. Other than the aint-shake package, it seems that the flash sync speed is the big difference. The Nikon line has a flash sync speed listed of 1/500,, and the KM series shows 1/160 with AS off and 1/125 with AS on. I am just a hobby shooter trying to get better, and get away from my no frills G600 KM camera.
What do you mean "no frills"G600? :-) I had to tease you on that one. I've got a Konica KD-510z (a.k.a., Minolta G500)that I carry with me everywhere in a pocket. Basically, your G600 is the same camera (other than it's got a 6MP sensor). My only big complaint with it is redeye (although it would be nice if it could shoot at higher ISO speeds, too, as anything over about ISO 200 tends to have too much noise in a subcompact camera).

It's actually a lot more flexible than most people realize (the translation to English in the manual leaves a lot to be desired, and you can customize the controls quite a bit with it).

KCan probably knows as much about flash as anyone around, and I see he's given you some links to articles about sync speed.

Note that KM's 3600HS (D) and 5600HS (D) flash systems have High Speed Sync (so they can be used at shutter speeds faster than the camera's sync speed). But, you get reduced flash range using HSS (since the flash is "pulsing" the light during the exposure). The Metz 54MZ4 using the latest SCA3302M5 module for Minolta also has High Speed Sync with the KM 5D or 7D.

Chances are, I'm going to buy one of these cameras (5D or 7D) myself soon. I've already started buying Minolta AF mount lenses for one of them (Minolta 28mm f/2, 50mmf/1.7, 100mm f/2, 135mm f/2.8, 24-85mm f/3.5-4.5; Tamron20-40mm f/2.7-3.5 and 35-105mm f/2.8, so far).



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Old Sep 24, 2005, 10:02 AM   #5
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P.S. -- here's some info on your G600 you may not be aware of (it's not very clear how to do some of this stuff in the manual).

These are my standard tips for Konica KD-510z/Minolta G500 owners (copied from an old forum post). But, they'd also apply to the G600:

The Konica's lens is rated at F2.8/F4.9 (typical for a subcompact model). So, more than twiceas much light can reach the sensor when shooting at wide angle.

So, try to shoot at wide angle whenever possible if indoors in low light (because what is bright to the human eye is not to the camera's lens).

This will greatly extend focus range/accuracy and flash range in low light. Also, when less flash is needed, it "throttles down" the output. This speeds up recycle times considerably. BTW, if you aren't getting focus lock, take the photo anyway. They generally come out pretty nice this way (the focus lock light is not reliable and Depth of Field is pretty good with a small sensored model).

Customizing the Controller keys:

You can setup the camera so that you rarely need to use the menus. Basically, just turn everything on under the Custom Menu. Here's how:

Press the Menu Button, and go to Setup, Custom.

You'll see a list of icons. Select each one, and turn all choices in submenus ON.

This turns on the Continuous Mode feature (and you can leave it that way all the time) -- allowing faster repeat photos, by holding down the shutter button since it won't refocus and remeter between frames.

Then, frequently used features are under the Controller Keys and you'll have this:

Left: switches between landscape, macro, self timer modes, including fixed focus choices (1m, 2m, 4m, etc.). You'll find that leaving it on the 2m focus choice works great for indoors where light is not always good enough for Autofocus. Thanks to tremendous Depth of Field with a small sensored model, you'll find just about everything within the flash range will be acceptably sharp this way if you don't use any zoom.

Right: switches between different flash modes

Up: allows you to set Exposure Compensation using left and right keys

Down: allows you to change White Balance Settings.

This gives you very fast access to exposure compensation, white balance, focus distances and flash modes without using the menus.

Turn it all on. Then, use it for a while, then go back into the Custom Menu, and turn off choices you don't use (so that only frequently used choices are toggled between when pressing a specific key).

You can allow or deny specific flash modes from appearing as a choice when using the right arrow key to toggle between them.

You can allow or deny focus choices from appearing -- even including (or excluding) macro, landscape, 1m, 2m, 4m from appearing as a toggle choice when the left controller key is pressed.

With everything turned on, you also get Autoexposure Lock with a half press of the shutter and a press of the up arrow; or Autofocus lock with a half press of the shutter and a press of the left arrow.

These virtually eliminate shutter lag when enabled (AF lock, AE lock). These will stay locked, until you either change the zoom settings, or disable them (in the same way that you enabled them).

Also, make sure to turn Quick View off (Setup, QuickView). This reduces lag time some, since it won't display the last photo taken for as long.

BTW, the camera defaults to Normal vs. Fine JPEG compression. This allows more photos on the Memory Card.

If you want the absolute best quality, simply change the mode to Fine (under the Resoluton Menu) instead.

If you don't like the front panel LED's, you can turn them off by going to Setup, Sounds; and turning off "Beep".

Also, make sure you hold the camera in a way that you don't have your right middle finger near the light sensor (small hole on front of camera). This will cause the flash to throttle down causing underexposed photos.

If you don't already own an image editing package, you may want to download the free irfanview from http://www.irfanview.com (make sure to download the free plug-ins too).

I generally shoot with Redeye Reduction turned off (I think that redeye reduction modes can spoil the photos, since the preflash used can change facial expressions).

To use irfanview to reduce redeye, zoom in on an eye using the + key. I usually zoom into to around 100%. Then, use your mouse to select the area around the red (square box).

Then, the redeye reduction menu choice will work. However, I usually don't use it this way. A better way is using the Effects, Effects Browser Menu Choice. You'll see redeye correction there, too. The difference is that you can change the amount applied. You'll see a before and after box to help you determine how much is needed.

A couple of more comments on the camera's setup:

You'll see a "Slow Shutter Menu". This menu controls the slowest allowable shutter speed for Autoexposure (with separate settings for Flash, and non-Flash (or Night Portrait) flash modes.

The camera defaults to a 1/60 second shutter speed for flash photos (which it speeds up, as zoom is used). It will prefer the flash setting you set here. I usually leave mine set to a slower shutter speed to pick up more ambient light with flash.

The second setting you see under the Slow Shutter Settings menu is for the slowest allowable shutter speed without flash. It defaults to 1/8 second. If you want to take night photos using a tripod, you may want to change this to 1 second (shown as 1/1). This will allow a slower shutter speed, while still using the camera's autoexposure (so that you don't have to use manual exposure instead, as long as exposures no longer than 1 second are needed). Longer than 1 second and you'll still need to use manual exposure.

It doesn't hurt to leave the second setting set slower (since it will automatically increase shutter speeds in better light anyway)

In less than optimum lighting outdoors, you may want to change the ISO speed to ISO 100 or higher under the Quality Menu via a User Profile (to get faster shutter speeds to help reduce blur).

This model defaults to ISO 50 with flash forced off. Anymore, my camera is set to ISO 200 more often than not to getfaster shutter speeds than default. ISO 200 cleans up pretty nicely with Noiseware or Neat Image.

One more tip... to enter playback mode, you don't need to open the camera cover -- simply press the play button for about 2 seconds with the cover closed and it will come on in playback mode.

BTW, your G600 also has a "hidden" raw mode. But, I don't recommend trying to use it (as it requires going into aa service menu that has other choices that can mess up your camera if you don't know what you're doing).

If you *really* want to know how to use it, send me a PM and I'll give you the key combinations necessary to enter the service menus.


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Old Sep 24, 2005, 5:31 PM   #6
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Soooooooooooooo ....what I think I understand you as telling me, is that I should not let the slower sync speeds in the specs keep me from buying the 5d. I read a big thing about sync speed on Ken Rockwell's site. To hear him tell it there is no usefor a camera that can't sync to at least 1/500. If a hot shoe flash can get the faster sync speeds then it's all good. I will feel better getting the KM 5d to replace my old maxxum 5000i. I like the idea of this so that my ole lenses aren't lost, even though they are nothigh end. I will stillget to use them and the filters I have. GREAT. If the high speed sync stuff is for stopping speeing bullets, then it wouldn't matter to me anyway....

As far as the oleG600, for a point and shoot that I got for FREE, yes you read it right, won a contest and got it FREE, I love the little bugger, but with the limited features as far as zoom, and no easy scene settings, it makes it hard to create some effects, but simple shooting, it does great, anyone who reads this should know, the G600 shoots beautiful outdoor pictures. But not to good inside the school gymnasium at more than 15 feet.

Hidden features huh, well since Iam going to get a 5d, my wife will not need extra features, tillI get her a better camera. She has more learning to do TOO.

Thanks

Michael Grace
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Old Sep 24, 2005, 6:34 PM   #7
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mikesjoint wrote:
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Soooooooooooooo ....what I think I understand you as telling me, is that I should not let the slower sync speeds in the specs keep me from buying the 5d. I read a big thing about sync speed on Ken Rockwell's site. To hear him tell it there is no usefor a camera that can't sync to at least 1/500. If a hot shoe flash can get the faster sync speeds then it's all good. I will feel better getting the KM 5d to replace my old maxxum 5000i. I like the idea of this so that my ole lenses aren't lost, even though they are nothigh end. I will stillget to use them and the filters I have. GREAT. If the high speed sync stuff is for stopping speeing bullets, then it wouldn't matter to me anyway....
Well, Ken is a very opinionated guy.

Hey, I don't disagree that a faster sync speed is a good thing. For fill flash outdoors when you want to shoot at wider apertures, it would be better (since shutter speeds are going to be faster than the sync speed unless stopped down in most outdoor conditions).

But, I would personallyvalue Antishake above a fast Flash Sync Speed.

You could also use a Neutral Density Filter (or even a Polarizer) to reduce the amount of light getting to the sensor if you needed to shoot at wider apertures for a shallow depth of field using a fill flash, and wanted to keep shutter speeds down (keeping flash range in mind).

Another way to do itis with an external flash supporting High Speed Sync like the Minolta 3600HS (D) or 5600HS (D).

Did you miss having a faster flash sync with yourMaxxum 5000i? Check your manual to make sure, but I think it'slimited to a maximum sync speed of only 1/90 second.

Sure, Ken loves to talk about it (since unlike most models he "reviews", he actually owns a Nikon D70). But, to say/imply that "there is no usefor a camera that can't sync to at least 1/500" (your interpretation, but that's about the way I'd read it, too) would leave you with a *very* short list.

The overwhelming majority of Single Lens Reflex cameras can't sync their flash at shutter speeds that fast.
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Old Sep 24, 2005, 6:41 PM   #8
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Well, being NEW to the dslr market, and wanting to make a good choice on this purchase, I was being cautious. No, I have never missed the sync speeds with the 5000i, but since I have chosen to try to learn more, and shoot more, I needed to know I would not outgrow this camera before the warranty expired.

I wish that there were some classes near me that I could take to learn more about photography. My dad, when younger worked for Olan Mills, and always shot on a full manual camera with great results, I have not yet learned what I need to about manually setting all the stuff and getting desired results. He would roll over in his grave if he knew I was spending this kind of money on a camera with scenes. ANYWAY, I was on BHPHOTO's website getting my order together. I think I am going to spend the extra and get it shipped FAST.

I will later get some faster lenses and a flash unit, I will be happy to be able to experiment and learn without the cost of film and its processing.

THANK YOU...

Mike
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Old Sep 24, 2005, 6:56 PM   #9
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Mike:

We didn't discuss lenses (I didn't realize you already had a Maxxum 5000i until much later in this thread).

One thing to keep in mind is that the sensor in a DSLR model like the Maxxum 5D is smaller than 35mm film.

As a result, you have a 1.5x crop factor. So, you need to multiply the actual focal length of any lens you use by 1.5x to get the 35mm equivalent focal length (since the sensor doesn't use the entire image circle projected).

So, a 50mm lens on a model like the 5D (or Nikon D70/D70s) would have the same angle of view that a 75mm lens would on your Maxxum 5000i (50mm x 1.5 = 75mm).

That means all of your lenses will appear to be longer.

So, make sure you take lens needs into consideration. You may even want to consider the 18-70mm kit lens (since you can get it for about $100 more compared to the body only price with a 5D in a kit). It's not the brightest lens in the world (f/3.5, stopping down to f/5.6 relatively soon in the zoom range).

But, it would give you something you can use on the wider end when desired if you don't already have a lens starting out as wide as needed for some conditions. Note that it won't work on your Maxxum 5000i (it's designed only for DSLR models).

It would be like using a 27-105mm lens on a 35mm camera (after the 1.5x crop factor).

So, depending on what lenses you already own, I'd consider what you may need for wider angles of view.

P.S.

You may also want to take memory cards into consideration (depending on what you're shooting, you may value the extra speed of a fast card).

You can find some speed tests from users reporting how well the 7D and 5D worked with different memory cards at this link:

http://www.dyxum.com/reviews/cfcard/index.asp

Note that the 5D appears to be signficantly faster to memory cards compared to the 7D (the 7D has a larger buffer for more shots before a slowdown, though).

Only a few reports have been posted for the 5D, but how different cards compare for speed should be about the same between the 5D and 7D (I'd expect the same cards to be slower or faster in either model). The Sandisk Extreme III cards are going to be the fastest, followed by the Sandisk Ultra II.


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Old Sep 24, 2005, 7:35 PM   #10
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mikesjoint wrote:
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GREAT. If the high speed sync stuff is for stopping speeing bullets, then it wouldn't matter to me anyway....
Nope , surprisingly , you don't need a high speed sync to flash-shooting a bullet :blah:.
The principle is: you open the shutter before shooting the bullet (in the dark) , shoot the gun, then fire the flash to freeze the "flying" bullet picture , then close the shutter.
The difficulty is in the flash triggering system (by sound or wire cutting mechanism) , also you have to use the shortest "firing duration" of the flash, meaning very low power (low manual power setting )

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