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Old Dec 11, 2005, 10:14 AM   #1
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I would be very happy witha small 8MP point and shoot with4X zoom and flash shoe. Is that so much to ask. Seems they now only want to make SLR's and digicams without flash sloes and or with only 3X zooms.

I loved my Sony V1 (5MP) , the Canon G6 had the features, though I didn't like the handling of the G6. Some of my earlier digicams had similar features, but makers seem to think you ether have to be an SLR shooter or either very simplified digicam shooter or a shooter with a digicam nearly as big and heavy as an SLR.

I think they will find thatoccassonal SLR shooters will soon tire of the size/weight, and temptation and to buy multiple expensivelenses as well as the supersize digicams withsuch features. After two SLR's and 6 lenses, I sold my SLR's and went through a series ofseveral digicams lacking important features previous provided on earlier models like the V1, G6 and others. (The Sony V3 has been disconued.)

Theclosest I could find was the Oly Sp350 and Nikon P1, both of which I have just purchased. The Canon Pro 1 has the features but didn't get such glowing reviews. The Sonly R1 and Minolta A200 are just too big and heavy. I may buy the Canon A620 for the zoom, but it lacks a flash shoe.

It just seems that the makers are cutting out the middle-range customers.
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Old Dec 11, 2005, 9:18 PM   #2
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I wouldn't be surprised if they weren't limiting their feature sets based on the desire to draw more advanced photographers to the highly profitable dSLR market.

But that also produces openings for other camera makers to move in to. If Canon and Nikon (the biggest sDLR makers I believe) don't make a high end camera with a flash hot-shoe, then someone else will.

The problem is cost. The digital camera market is very senstive to cost, so they are very careful in what they put in and out of a camera.

Eric
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Old Dec 12, 2005, 4:11 AM   #3
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nochance44 wrote:
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the Canon G6 had the features, though I didn't like the handling of the G6.
Do you really think better user interface can be installed to pocket camera?
Unless they can find the way to make camera capable to reading your thoughts there's no way to have anything better than for more serious use next to useless menusurfing controls in small camera.

And neither it's possible to to fit longer zoom optics to small camera.



eric s wrote:
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I wouldn't be surprised if they weren't limiting their feature sets based on the desire to draw more advanced photographers to the highly profitable dSLR market.
Sure, because DSLRs are also more "media sexy" and in that side they have always ready fanatics of SLR-religion to toute "absolute truth".

And in that facts don't matter, even such facts that top of the class prosumer can give real run for the money to DSLRs in many aspects while being very convenient considering feature range.
http://www.neocamera.com/feature_dslr.html
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Old Dec 12, 2005, 10:01 AM   #4
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E.T wrote:
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Sure, because DSLRs are also more "media sexy" and in that side they have always ready fanatics of SLR-religion to toute "absolute truth
I would disagree with this as it relates to the point I'm making. The camera makers care about profit. Period. And the dSLR market is more profitable on a per-person-purchase basis than a point-and-shot because of the back-end profit of the add-ons.

They prefer to make a product that the media is pre-disposed to liking, and they like the "free press" that they get from all the people who are members of the dSLR-religion. But that doesn't make a bit of difference to what features they put into a point-and-shoot. What matters is:
What the market will buy at what price point.
How they are trying to aim the product (what market, what use. If they are aiming at camera for family shots, kids running around... then they have to have low shutter lag or the product will fail.)
How that relates to their product line and the product line of their competitors

Eric
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Old Dec 12, 2005, 2:07 PM   #5
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I really don't know what the profit margins are and what they make the most money with. But they sell a lot more small cameras than DSLRs and the competition is stiff. There are plenty of buyers who want manual modes, a viewfinder and external flash capabilities in a small camera.

The V1 was a marvel. It is unfortunate they upsized the V3 to no apparent advantage. But if I am going to carry a flash I would also probably carry a larger camera. Once I have a bag to carry, miniaturization isn't a big factor.

What some of the more competent small cameras really need is a sync cord connector for "one camera" users. A big flash on a tiny camera is uncomfortable and a bracket is much more useable. A sync connector doesn't make the camera larger or heavier – or more difficult to slip in a pocket. That might appeal to buyers like you who don't want a large camera and who want external flash capability. That applies even more to larger cameras like the Canon S2 and Sony H1.

I do think they make the occasional camera for the DSLR user who just wants something competent to drop in their pocket. But I think those same users would likely carry their DSLR if they were carrying a flash.

I can see leaving off the hot shoe with many consumer cameras. But the lack of a sync connector is an oversight IMO.


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Old Dec 12, 2005, 7:29 PM   #6
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Slipe, I *think* (in other words I don't know and I haven't read it, but it just makes sense to me) that more money is made selling fixed-lens cameras than dSLRs. But I bet more money is made *per person who buys a SLR* because of the extras that they buy. That extra lens or two and maybe a flash adds up. And I bet very few people buy the add-on lenses to the fixed-lens cameras... those wide angle adapters just seem more like a gimick to me.

I bet the info is out there on the web as to which makes them more money per customer, but I couldn't find it via google.

I like that idea of the sync cord. I agree, that wouldn't add too much to the cost and it would be a good differentating(SP!) feature between it and the other models. At least to the people who know what a sync cord was for.

Eric

ps. I don't know why, but I've never been a fan of the word "point-and-shoot". I guess it feels like it reduces the user/owner to seem like they aren't as... good (? I'm not sure that is the word I'm looking for) as dSLR users. When its the results, and not the camera, that matters.
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Old Dec 12, 2005, 8:22 PM   #7
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ps. I don't know why, but I've never been a fan of the word "point-and-shoot". I guess it feels like it reduces the user/owner to seem like they aren't as... good (? I'm not sure that is the word I'm looking for) as dSLR users. When its the results, and not the camera, that matters.
My only problem with the term point and shoot is when someone uses it to describe any non-DSLR. Some of the big prosumer digitals have more physical controls than a DSLR. I count 15 push buttons, 5 dials, a switch plus a manual zoom and electric focus rings on my old D7i. It is like learning to play a piano. The EVFs give both through the lens and after the computer view, giving a lot of information like a full time histogram in the process. Most EVFs aren't too good for image quality, but that in itself doesn't make a camera a P&S.

So I break them into DSLR, prosumer (with manual controls etc) and P&S. Another term I see used for prosumer is "enthusiast".

Even the digital cameras I refer to as P&S have more versatility than small film P&S cameras had. With spot metering and instant EV shift with a histogram to refer to you can work some pretty difficult lighting situations. But many don't have useful things like 5 settings each for contrast, sharpening and saturation or manual white balance. I find all of those useful.

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Old Dec 12, 2005, 9:46 PM   #8
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Being a new SLR shooter I couldn't be happier with my KM 5D, and compare just the quality of the picture, just simple things of some random shots, I am surprise how much better it does compare to my older P&S cam. But I am frustrated, as a consumer, that to get that kind of clarity and such you pretty much have to spend the money and get something as "technical" as a DSLR. Which for those who use it is a very involving experience, for better or worse. I do like the idea of a higher end, "P&S" camera that possess SLR-like technology, with the big sensor and quality glass, but not nearly as technical as an SLR. I think this is a interesting market company shoild explore. I think Sony's R1 might be the closest thing to it now, but I don't want the pretension of bing a pseudo SLR, Istead I just want something that might be as plain as a normal P&S with a big glass. Think the look of something like a Leica Digilux 2 but with real APS-C size sensor and so forth, but not cost nearly as much. I'd imagine the first few will be like Sony R1, costs comparable to a SLR, but with time the price will drop and I think everyone can get what they deserved, which is great picture....
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Old Dec 13, 2005, 8:23 AM   #9
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'glass' is EVERYTHING in photography

it is tough to make a good 'prime'

imo: any zoom in excess of 3x 'stinks' by definition

once you go interchangeable lens you may as well have all the other bells and whistles (and for that kind of investment it better be well made and rugged)

YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR



ps. i believe sensors have an off the line 'acceptance rate' of 20-30%

again: you get what you pay for
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Old Dec 13, 2005, 11:03 AM   #10
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no interchangable lens, just a fixed manual lens, with maybe at most 4x zoom, from like 20 to 80mm, with bigger sensor and big aparture. I think that'll be more ideal than what R1 is currently offer, and give it more market seperation to true SLR...
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