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Old Aug 14, 2007, 1:14 PM   #1
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Hello fellow Hybrid enthusiasts!

I've been a reader of Steve's DigiCams for 3 years and this is my first post. 4 weeks ago I purchased a Sanyo Xacti CG6. I loved the format (grip style), size and that it is a video recorder and a digicam with 5x optical, 2.5 LCD, have auto and manual modes, 6MP and cost. Bad thing, at least for me, is that it shoots bad stills. The stills have noticeable noise and it gets worse in low light no matter the ISO, Shutter, Fstop, etc. that I throw at it. So I sadly had to return it and look for something with similar specs or better. So believe it or not I found it!!! It is not as sexy as the Xacti CG6 but it's almost as small, has 12MP, 5x optical, records movies in MPEG4 (VGA and 720i) with sound, has manual and auto modes, supports SDHC, you can zoom while taking videos, has a nice 2.5 LCD, great flash and best of all shoots great stills and videos with almost no image noise in low light!!! The camara I purchase is the Kodak Z1275 and it costs less than the Xacti CG6. So far I am in love with it and recommend it as a nice hybrid to own!
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Old Aug 14, 2007, 1:58 PM   #2
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I'm not sure if there is an official definition for the term hybrid. After all, nearly all digital cameras these days will take movie clips too, to varying degrees. I think we we typically refer to as a hybrid are ones that have the side-swiveling screen like a video camera.

I'm surprised to hear about your experience with the CG6. As most here know, I just purhcased one and I am exctatic about the still image quality. I actually sold my digital still camera on ebay because it became obvious I would no longer need it. Granted, I have not done that many indoor still photos and I think the ones I did were with the flash on. However, in my tests (compared to my Fuji Z1 still camera) it actually surpased my fuji in both indoor and outdoor conditions. The flash on the Z1 may have hada little more effective range,but that is about it.

These are all pictures I took with my CG6:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/david_murray/tags/cg6/

Maybe tonight I'll do some more experimentation with photos indoors without the flash and see what I can come up with.

I DID noticed one thing.. now that you mention it. My Fuji would allow me to hold the shutter button down in dark situations for up to 3 seconds to capture more light. However, this was nearly useless on my fuji as it had no tripod mount and it is impossible to hold the camera steady enough to make use of that by hand. The CG6 doesn't appear to allow the long shutter times like that, which is a pitty because it has a tripod mount.
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Old Aug 14, 2007, 2:30 PM   #3
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I would for the reason that it attempts to deliver two formats equally well. This does not mean it does this successfully, but at least it attempts to. Its not a after thought or fluff.

I think the original def for hybrids (2004-5) was pretty good, a good fusion of two different formats. This differes from all the other models that has one main format and offers the other format as a "bonus". These the quality is severely limited on the second format.

So it really doesn't matter if its a still that also offers decent video,

or a video that offers decent stills.

Is a zebra black with white stripes, or white with black stripes?

I would disagreethat the cg6 shoots bad stills. Not even close to bad! I own the CG6 and am also very happy with it.

The cg6 has a very good real 6MP CCD, excellent metering system, WB, and produces stunning photos. I would not be surprised to see the kodak takes equally or better photos, but would be surprised if it took better videos. That said I would not mind the kodak to test out!


One final thought, it is interesting howso many have different ideas what a hybrid is! Some do not consider the cg6 as a hybrid simply because it does not include MP3, in which case neither models would be considered hybrids. But I think a more honest definition is like the one I described.

Could u have picked a more controversial topic for your first post ? :-)

This could turn out to be a good thread.
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Old Aug 14, 2007, 3:05 PM   #4
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We have had similar discussions on this forum before and you are basically treading into the realms of philosophy here.

I remember being a member of a tinycam forum on yahoo. A few years back, a tinycam was basically any cheap camera under $100 that took 640x480 stills. As time went on of course, it became more difficult to justify a 'tinycam' as mainstream brands got cheaper and the cheap cameras got better so they started to merge. It became very difficult to know which line divided the two.

It is almost like asking how long is a piece of string or what do you call a cheap camera? Is a cheap camera under $150, $100 or $50?

I tend to draw the line as adric22 says at those devices that look like a smaller version of the classic camcorder design with the side opening LCD screen. Also they tended to be under $200, but again with the release of the GO-HD, how do you categorise it? Especially as it doesn't have mp3 capability which some consider is the third item that makes a hybrid. But of course hybrid really means the fusion of two items not three or more. The trouble is, if we just allowed it to only be still images and video then that would ecompass all modern cameras/camcorders.

When I bought my Olympus D340R hardly any camera did video and those that did were nothing to write home about. Fast forward to today and it's the opposite in that it's hard to find a camera without video. Even the $20 toys have a basic video mode even if it is 10fps and no sound!

Another thing you have to consider, is that the reason this forum was created is that manufacturers such as Aiptek and Mustek were also not mainstream and popular enough to have their own forum whereas Kodak is and does. Of course the Sanyo has it's own forum as well.

Still, as this forum has no associated brand we still like to discuss all devices that don't fit neatly into the other categories!
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Old Aug 14, 2007, 4:15 PM   #5
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Yes.. this is a tough one. And I think the problem is only going to get worse because of the fact that more and more camcorders are taking megapixel stills and more and more still cameras are taking DVD-quality movies. However, I've discovered the main difference seems to be in the marketing. If you go into an electronics store, is the device marketed as a camcorder (which is often in a different section) or is it a still camera?

You know, I made a lot of predictions over the years that have come true, even though my friends and family thought I was nuts. Around 1996 I said that DVDs would replace VHS tapes completely. Around 1998 I said that MP3 players would replace the CD player and audio tapes. Around that same time, I also said that eventually camcorders would record directly to DVDs. (although memory cards never occurred to me)

Well.. I'm making another prediction here. I think in 5 to 10 years there will be a major shift from seperate camcorders and digital cameras to what we are calling hybrids. I think as MPEG4 cameras become better, tape camcorders are going to start loosing sales and companies are going to switch entirely from tape to memory card. I think the problem right now is consumer awareness. I remember back in 1997 when I was showing off my digital camera (A Casio QV10) people were absulutely amazed by the concept. It was totally new to them. In just a few years, what was a new thing became mainstream. These last few weeks I've been experiencing the same thing with my Sanyo CG6. People have seen it and been taken aback by it. They start asking questions, and seem very impressed. Soon they reach the same logical conclusion I reached some time ago, "Why do we even bother with tapes anymore?" So just like film, I think tapes will go away. The hybrids we are playing with right now might have historical significance someday just like the Casio QV-10 as the first consumer digital camera, or the Connectix Quickam as the first webcam.
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Old Aug 14, 2007, 4:18 PM   #6
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I think there are basicallytwo main philosphies of hybrid cameras. The mainstream view which is the one I described early and can be illustrated by hundreds of online reviews that use the term to describe various models like this review of the C5,

http://www.cameratown.com/reviews/re...hurl/id%7C1502

and the review of Casio EX-P505

http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/orei...asio_p505.html

two very different looks of what a hybrid can be.

And there is the philosophy that was elegantly described by adric22 and rgvcam, and probably shared by the majority of members here. Which I would consider a sub culture too. Which I understand totally and respect.

But I think perhaps we should keep in mind that there are 2 main definitions. The mainstream,

http://news.com.com/Video+or+still+Y...3-5569845.html

which even includes the fusion of film and digital,

http://www.imaging-resource.com/EVEN...982640658.html

and the definition followed here.

Perhaps we need 3 diffinitions?

1. Subcompact camcorder looking hybrid with MP3 under $200

2. Subcompact camcorder looking with out MP3 (any price)

3. Any decent fusion of 2 or more formats (any price)

I assure you no sarcasm intended! Just lack of better terms is all.

I stand behind #3, but accept all three. But please, no more then three definitions! :lol:


I definitely agree with adric22's perdiction! This is just the tip of the ice berg! the best is yet to come!I think Sanyo, JVC, and Panasonic really opened some eyes! I would expect that from Panasonic and especially JVC! But I was surprised that Sanyotoo was raising the bar of expectation!

We do owe a lot to pioneers like Aiptek too!

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Old Aug 14, 2007, 4:29 PM   #7
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testing not a actual post
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Old Aug 14, 2007, 4:48 PM   #8
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MorePixels wrote:
Quote:
I stand behind #3, but accept all three. But please, no more then three definitions! :lol:
Unless of course you're Sony :G

I suspect we will soon see a shift towards improving the video quality vs recording time to reduce the artifacts that we still see at the moment. In the past they were concentrating on producing a device that could record a respectable amount of video on the available memory sizes they had since it's pointless having a video device that can only record 10 minutes (you listening Canon?) Also the other constraint was that too high a bitrate caused problems in playback on older PC's.

As the memory sizes increase they will reach a point where it's no longer a marketing advantage to keep the same bitrate and so it's better to start improving the quality to get those last diehards away from miniDV. I mean being able to record 8 hours of video on a $10 card would be pretty pointless really. I am sure we'd all rather have much higher quality with just 3-4 hours running time for instance. Of course h264/AVCHD will help, as long as they don't merely use it as an execuse to do the same quality in a lower bitrate. The magic point I think is when the average person is able to record an entire event such as a birthday etc. on one card without having to change it, provided of course the battery can keep up! For longer events such as weddings I am not sure being able to fit the whole thing on one card is that much more of an advantage since they tend not to be shot continuosly anyway. Of course, with the Sanyo's and Aipteks you practically can record a birthday party already. I know as I have done it.

This is why VHS won over Beta, simply because it could record the average movie length on one cassette. DVD recordables upped this to about 3 hours, because of movies such as the Titanic. Unofficially you can fit even more by varying the bitrates but the 3 hour limit is considered a sort of standard now for DVD recording. I am of course talking of single layer.

I for one, will not be sorry to see tapes die. Panasonic already have professional Hidef cameras with very high bitrates that record to flash memory. In fact one of the arguments against digital cameras was that they were too slow and not good enough for professional use yet Sports photographers have practically all dumped film cameras already.

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Old Aug 14, 2007, 4:51 PM   #9
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I really want this hybrid!!!!

http://news.com.com/1606-2-6078473.html

http://crave.cnet.co.uk/video/0,1391...9284379,00.htm
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Old Aug 14, 2007, 5:04 PM   #10
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sorry if I am now stepping on your toes?

a hybrid how far back should we go?

lets go back to where i do not want to mention thesites ghost town name DWI dam.

The Mustek Site anything Undewr 200.00 usc was a hybrid, as long as it had:

video

still

voice recorder

mp3 player

webcam

card reader/writer/storage

pictbridge

av input

highlighted as they may have been adding on, order may vary to companies

If you placed a price tag on each of the items they be XX.XX per device? Mustek placed out the model Mustek dv2000 in early to late summer-2001

300-350.00usc

video, pic voice recorder webcam external sd card



now today this camera is revised, and called the 2032?

if it has Video still webcam andvoice it is a hybrid

If it has a tft screen that swivals away from a slr body it is a slr to me?

no matter what company it is thye claim to call a still and avideo a hybrid?



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