Go Back   Steve's Digicams Forums > Digital Cameras (Point and Shoot) > Hybrid Still/Movie/MP3 Digicams

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old Nov 24, 2008, 2:41 PM   #1
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 60
Default

I've been trying to find which hybrid cams can record video @ 60fps in 720p (or 1080p, lol)

I have been reading that cameras that do 1080p @ 30fps and 720p @ 60fps have worse quality than those cameras that are only 720p.

Something to do with the sensor and downscaling, and artifacts.
Is that true?

Will my 720p 60fps videos look better from a 720p-only model?
Or, will it look better on a model that can also do 1080p @ 30fps?

I am looking at the Aiptek that maxes out at 720p @ 60fps and I wonder if the quality is better than A-HD.

Are there any other models or manufacturers of hybrids that can do 720p at 60fps?

??
kiyoshi_music is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old Nov 25, 2008, 1:44 AM   #2
Senior Member
 
Wayne12's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,071
Default

Sorry, most people around here, except for the moderators and a few others, are a bit slack to respond to messages asking for help, or a better world.

If you of to the camera list thread, and footage thread at top of the list, and review threads, you will often find this information. The moderator that maintains the camera list threads needs a hand in list new models, as there are too many, and many people now are listing new models outside the thread.

As for the 720p60 versus 1080p30 debate. Yes and no, sometimes the interpolation is done porer and the 720p or 1080p mode suffers. You do get some better compression from the higher data-rate presenting more similar frames for compression, and less blur (but in daylight the shutter might be so fast on 1080p30 (if the cameras works that way) that you get reduced blur and enough similarity between frames. 1080i is where it often suffers, but 1080p30 is as compressible as 720p30, maybe more, a the extra pixels are still rendering the same scene, so I imagine that increase efficiency a bit.

The problem is that manufacturers still off better data rate on 1080p30 mode (using 1440 pixels across) than 720p60 which uses a lot more pixels per-second. Sometimes it seems to be less than double the 720p 4.58 mode, and sometimes double. There is some efficiency gain with the higher data rate, but even at 720p60 approx 9mb/s it is still a lot less than the 1080p30 modes of the best cameras. They need to be similar or, 720p60 a lot more. However, the 1080p often suffers more from rolling shutter slanted images (wobbles a lot) than 720p60 and I imagine that might be, at least, a little less compressible. The reality is test, test, test, for these things to determine which camera produces best in which mode. We really need a website fro this. A convenient hybrid cam site.

Looking at the Kodak zi6, I think the same sensor as the HSHD, but less features and more expensive. Looking at it again, it may have similar data-rates, or higher, but unknown. I thought the HSHD had less, as in real life many of the 720p60 modes achieve less than nearly 9mb/s quoted. The Samsung hmx10c model does 60fps, maybe the same sensor, and maybe a higher data-rate.

There are newer better cameras coming through, I have industry sources, and spoke with one about this. 10 mpixel was talked about (10mp still, or video, probably stills, video would be a very big data-rate) and I imagine higher data rates) that person has evaporated again.
Wayne12 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Nov 25, 2008, 1:53 AM   #3
Senior Member
 
Wayne12's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,071
Default

Forgot, Canon has a flash based camcorder that does 1080p30 1920 pixels across, and 1080i60 at 24mb/s (I think) at that rate the interlace might not make such a difference, and should have adequate performance, it really depends on how much money you want to spend. The Samsung hmx20c might be a bit cheaper, and lower data-rate. I got the number wrong before, it is the hmx-10c that does 720p.

You might find that the cheap cameras might not be so good for rapid movement compression because of wobble and blur.

I have been thinking of using a HSHD, or Kodak, for stereo filing configuration.
Wayne12 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Nov 25, 2008, 6:13 AM   #4
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 60
Default

i appreciate your technical observations.

without actually owning every model of hybrid from every manufacturer, it's almost impossible to know the quality i'd be getting.

i know that each camera performs differently in different areas:
- color saturation
- low-light quality
- movement fluidity
- exposure, white balance
- focusing abilities

as well as other things:
- build quality
- resolutions it records in
- DATA RATE (kilobits per second)
- fps
- file format
- audio format

this site is very helpful in determining the qualities of various hybrid cams.
however, there are a few downsides with everyone using vimeo to showcase the footage.

firstly, there is no real list of all the latest (and best, which may not always be the newest) models. there should be a list of all the manufacturers and all their newest models - with RAW files for each model, so we can see the file formats, data rate, and quality.

everyone films different stuff, but it would be great if one really rich person had a standardized testing video with static objects and scenarios that test the full range of things people are interested in. such as having a 5-6 minute video for each model that goes through showing objects close up, far away, direct sunlight, in doors, movement, testing audio from certain distances away, etc - and the same video for each model. maybe there could be a comparison video taken with a very expensive 3ccd 1080p camcorder that ought to be superior in every way. i dont know, i guess i'm just dreaming!

server space is not a problem, and i am curious why there is not more raw footage files available for download. is the community too small?

also, it seems there are major gaps in information, specs, reviews, footage, etc... i have heard nothing on the latest SVP models, and they are a big player in the hybrid cam market, so that's curious

its too bad nobody is rich enough to go buy all the latest models from all different manufacturers and run them through identical tests with raw footage files available for direct download, but i am still appreciative of all the insight and info that is here
kiyoshi_music is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Nov 25, 2008, 11:49 AM   #5
Senior Member
 
Wayne12's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,071
Default

You don't need to buy all the cameras. You can use the specification, though they can't tell you how good the camera is, they tend to show you the maximum quality. Then there are review footage you can get an idea of latitude, noise and bit rate. That would leave you with only a handful of cameras to test in shop (at a window or extra bright display to test how it handles latitude a little (real daylight is much more severe).

Vimeo allows people to put the original camera file on site for download (though they are changing regulations now, so I don't know what the new rules are). You have to sing into a vimeo account to access it. There is a lot of footage that has the originals.

Steves has such static scenes for tests, and could be setup to test cameras with our illustrious moderators.

About the site, and the list, I have thought of doing this before, but I am so often sick I have problems looking after myself when I do things, and can't afford to. I have suggested a wiki to do with similar categorising, or database (dvinfo). If you talk tot he moderators maybe you can take over the existing camera list. I am still thinking of starting a list. I came here to specialise in video on still cameras, do reviews and other things, but given the quality of the movie functions in non-hybrid cameras it seems a bit pointless. Red, will be then only one that gives it, apparently. In case Steve hasn't caught it yet, they are doing their own still motion photography line, the top of the line camera does 28K pixels across, but I think this is the 3D version. Until I get a camera, and get back into it, I won't be doing much.

The bit about a rich person buying all the cameras to test them, is funny, Fishy has been doing that. Hopefully the camera manufacturers can figure out to send him all new models for review.
Wayne12 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Nov 25, 2008, 12:00 PM   #6
Senior Member
 
Wayne12's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,071
Default

Where you looking for HD bullet camera? I came across this again last night:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/digital-v...-hxr-mc1p.html

http://www.sony.co.uk/biz/view/ShowP...purposeCameras
Wayne12 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Nov 25, 2008, 12:02 PM   #7
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,153
Default

It's simple.

For Aiptek A-HD+ and Action HD models...

1. 720/60p minimizes rolling shutter
2. 720/30p keeps rolling shutter while improving detail
Private Idaho is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Nov 26, 2008, 3:47 AM   #8
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 19
Default

The original Q was a good one. The jaggie issue has a *lot* to do with sampling the sensor and NOT THE COMPRESSION DATA RATE.


To summarize : On the two aiptek's I have, the Action HD and the A-hd+, the 720 modes shoot a wider view, for one thing ( also not on the data sheet !!! ) , and the 720 mode does a horrible downsample ( or lack there of ) from the sensor.
Aiptek may even be avoiding a proper demosaic on the 720 modes, and just doing a pixel skip. The sensor is 2500 or so wide, and it seems they just do a divide by 2 ( skip by 2's ) to get the 1280 across for 720p.
The 1080 mode, which is actually 1440 pixels across, seems to use the middle 1440 pixels, and hence the narrower field of view. The 1080 mode looks better, maybe because the camera has time to process more due to the lower frame rate. Just a guess, only aiptek knows the answer to that.

Anyhow, the cams look good for the money. I hope I helped explain this in a not to technical way.
lesdit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Nov 26, 2008, 4:01 AM   #9
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 19
Default

I have a feeling that since they are listing that in the 'pro' category, it will be pricey. I'd guess $2K to $3K.
If I could get one for $1K and get it now, it would be on my head in about a month riding a dirt bike in Vietnam I guess I'll have to settle for a VIO POV1. I hear VIO is doing an HD helmet cam as well, but when ? Can I beta test, guys ??




Wayne12 wrote:
Quote:
Where you looking for HD bullet camera? I came across this again last night:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/digital-v...-hxr-mc1p.html

http://www.sony.co.uk/biz/view/ShowP...purposeCameras
lesdit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Nov 26, 2008, 6:41 AM   #10
Senior Member
 
Wayne12's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,071
Default

I think I might have seen a cheaper price.

Sumix and elphel do cheaper camera heads, but they are Ethernet based, if that helps (though I had been prompting them to do component/HDMI out). The Elphel model will have a flash drive recording in the case. The sensors are similar to the ones used here, but full HD, higher quality. The solution is less than $1000, but then you have to get flash and other components. I imagine that Sumix might be looking at something similar. This is all DIY stuff. dvinfo.net hosts project threads in their alternative imaging forum.

Next year Red will have a $2.5K 3K camera out (will probably do more than 60fps at 1080p). There might be a cheaper camera, haven't been able to talk Jim into producing a low end $500 camera based on the ambarella chip-set (the 16mb/s+ ones), but that can be done separately. Kiyoshi, if you know any of those millionaires, their money would be better spent in getting really descent $300-$500 camera produced, there are people out there I know.


Thanks


Wayne.
Wayne12 is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 4:40 AM.