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Old Jun 11, 2010, 12:03 AM   #1011
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Originally Posted by fishycomics View Post
Hd720P60F will not be exact, especiall when you film @ low level or extreme low level, the cam will Drop its Framerate of 60 -to-30frames.

The cam Works fine for me, plays fine for me on a LCD 42 inch and its not plasma, are you saying lcd is plasma ? confused?
..
I tend notto worry boutthe Little things, that may be Bigto others,

The cam does its job, and does it well.

I have two clips:

hd720p 30 8.51 mbits 9 mb daytime train
hd720p60 9.5ish mbits 9 mb
hd720p60 12.5ish mbits 6 mbs close up window

As I shot about 8 vids, the first vid or two were lower, then the others most the vids are @ 12.90mbits

I just wanted to say that.
Too, low, does matter. But what about 1080p, I expect 720p to be lower?

Some TV's and players smooth out artifacts, but often not as good as high bit rate.

Thanks

Wayne.
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Old Jun 11, 2010, 12:54 AM   #1012
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OK. Found the videos I have that show over 20mb/s are from steves main review.
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Old Jun 11, 2010, 3:32 AM   #1013
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Thanks wayne for the update,

My firmware version is 1.06.

when the cam was held still in the palm for a 1 minute video.

In 1080p mode,the video bit rate was 12.637 mbps (with no compression artifacts) under bright sun.

In 720p 60 fps mode it was 10.058 mbps. Video was very smooth but not as sharp as 1080p mode.

Compression artifacts appeared in 1080p mode only when the cam was prone to sudden shakes.

Bitrate should depend on,

1) Illumination.
2) Image Details.
3) Vividity of colors.
4) Fixity of the camera.
5) Encoding settings of the chip.

Now my query is that, can I up the bitrate by downgrading the firmware and get it to around 20 mbps?.I would prefer quality above quantity! The only possible solution seems to be altering the codec compression settings which isn't possible in the ZI8 menu. So some one could design a MOD firmware allowing total freedom of the controlls.

My personal opinion is that the poor bit rate and compression artifacts have something to do with encoding of video file formats (.MP4/.MOV which try to yield a high compression to compensate the file size at expense of quality loss). But it shouldn't be a problem in .AVI format (raw uncompressed video).

Last edited by drramkishorehs; Jun 11, 2010 at 3:36 AM.
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Old Jun 11, 2010, 5:49 AM   #1014
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Wayne you in the group now buddy, with a ZI8?

Congrad's Bud! very pleased. never trying to pushothers.

Be happy it takes great video and just that.
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Old Jun 11, 2010, 12:03 PM   #1015
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Hi to everyone!
I'm new here and i have a little problem...
Yesterday i was filming my son and my ZI8 drop into water -> lost ...
Saturday i have to go to red sea (holidays!) so i need a new camcorder, i don't know what to buy. I can't decide between the samsung HMX-U20 and a new Zi8, has anyone tryed both? I'd like the optical zoom of the samsung, but there are so few reviews about it...
Can you help me?
THANK YOU very much!!! And sorry for my bad english, i'm italian.
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Old Jun 11, 2010, 12:32 PM   #1016
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I never said I would buy it.. but sigh, I did.

I have 1.06 firmware. They allowed me to test in store with my card, and I did a rough pan to see the data rate. 11 seconds roughly 18mb/s. Is this within the 40% variable below 24mb/s or above 13mb/s of the ambarella codec? I suspected that the high data rates in the steves ones where from the pool water (notoriously difficult on codecs). This does not worry me too much, because it is precisely these sorts of situations that I want the high data rate for. For instance, you take the family down the beach, and all they see in the background (also stealing away from encoding of the main subjects) on their 42inch LCD TV (or future post 60 inch TV) is blocky waves flicking around. Streams, lakes, trees, grass even, lots of movement, indoor noise, most of them would be the same, not even 24mb/s in enough for a prime consumer picture (and HDTV is NOT a prime consumer picture quality). I am actually typing instead of looking at my test footage. There is already a 28mb/s video camera out there, if I wasn't aiming for a higher end camera, boy. I think that latest versions of Sanyo HD2000 and FH1 are better cameras for the more discerning buyer over this camera (see below), but I don't buy, because I suspect a better camera this year, maybe even 3D.

Now, the bad news, the pan turned put terrible. It appears to be overlapping exposure (or maybe a function of forward and backward compression) between multiple frames (really bad and choppy looking). I am going to try to attach a frame to show you what I mean, have a look at the signs for the SD and usb cards. You will see a ghost fo the image before hand and after. I remember another companies try to claim this off as normal, what is the real reason I am uncertain, but here is my stab at it: In store it is dropping the shutter down below the 30fps frame rate and is overlapping between multiple frames (ideally the frame rate might drop like on my lower end Aiptek HSHD) or the shutter speed decreases in multiples of the frame rate (30th/15th/10th etc to sync perfectly with the the frames (basically multiple frames now have the same image). But my guess is it could alternatively be some sort of time based inter-frame interpolation, that spreads events across multiple frames to 'smooth' out the picture. It could even be the 50hz florescent lighting not matching in with the 60hz frame rate (this camera lacks 50fps modes, and 50hz flicker reducing timing option, as well as exposure and color balance settings (please some manual options). The image is also grainy (store is also well lit in computer/camera section) and with the motion the pan quality is poor, I think all the data rate is being sucked up.

I am sensing, just from the on camera screen footage tests I did in store on both cameras, that the playsport might be getting slightly more latitude in top and bottom end (maybe stops) but this could also be a number of non latitude items causing this (even the camera screen itself).

I expected to buy a second class camera for the price (basic camera, in between sensor, but 24mb/s) but if 12-14mb/s is the normal that is OK for those American prices, but not for the local price, but the choppy stuff is a failure. Kodak has a real chance to take on the camera market, and reestablish itself, with quality all purpose cameras are good price (what has the competition done for them). It would be great to see a waterproof, 24mb/s+ 1080p60/50 3D version of this camera with better senor and a better menu feature set like the Samsung. We also need a mid level still in the market, with similar performance and features to the Sony HX5, but 24mb/s mode+, better video and better manual controls; and a digital slr like (like 4/3rds micro) super HD model, having everything a happy snapper or hobbyist/video journalist might need.

I had to down sample to still to 960*540. I have blanked out the identity of a few people, one did not seem to be happy with it.
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Old Jun 11, 2010, 1:05 PM   #1017
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drramkishorehs View Post
Thanks wayne for the update,

My firmware version is 1.06.

..

Bitrate should depend on,

1) Illumination.
2) Image Details.
3) Vividity of colors.
4) Fixity of the camera.
5) Encoding settings of the chip.

..

The only possible solution seems to be altering the codec compression settings which isn't possible in the ZI8 menu. So some one could design a MOD firmware allowing total freedom of the controlls.

My personal opinion is that the poor bit rate and compression artifacts have something to do with encoding of video file formats (.MP4/.MOV which try to yield a high compression to compensate the file size at expense of quality loss). But it shouldn't be a problem in .AVI format (raw uncompressed video).
Drramkishorehs. Mods take a long time, by the time you do a mod for a particular camera, a new camera (if not several) with those features might well be out. It would be a better bet if there was a general mod for any ambarella based cameras available (so at least you can use on a future camera). Somebody was talking about doing a mod for a Aiptek camera here, that might be better to check out. I don't know if there is a calibration/service menu that might have something.

Polderon, Fishy has reviews of the u10 as well. From reviews, i understand that the u15 and U20 has similar picture quality (but two different sensors).
you. The u10, was the camera that 'could have' around here.

About super hd. There is a guy among the red crew developing a codec that will supposedly do super HD at 10mb/s. I am waiting to see about this, I know how it can be done with quality, but am skeptical if this will be anymore than SHD borders around bland details and areas. But in any case, it might bring significant quality improvement at 24mb/s+. We will have to wait to see, but I suspect applied to a ambqrella level of technology complexity, it could yield low cost SHD at below 50mb/s.
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Old Jun 11, 2010, 1:16 PM   #1018
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Originally Posted by fishycomics View Post
Wayne you in the group now buddy, with a ZI8?

Congrad's Bud! very pleased. never trying to pushothers.

Be happy it takes great video and just that.
Thanks Fishy.
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Old Jun 11, 2010, 5:18 PM   #1019
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Quote:
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....Polderon, Fishy has reviews of the u10 as well. From reviews, i understand that the u15 and U20 has similar picture quality (but two different sensors).
you. The u10, was the camera that 'could have' around here.
...

Thank you , so you think u10 is better than u20 too

Reading the specs u20 is a little darker (3.5 vs 3), u10 has more pixels (10 vs 7.8), but u20 has optical zoom and autofocus. I'd like to try the u20 , i posted here to see if anyone with the kodak tryed a samsung too..
The zi8 had a bad backlighting management (with my videos..).
Thank you agin and good evening
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Old Jun 11, 2010, 6:00 PM   #1020
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As I own quite a few models, the U10 is one of them, it will not make me want a u15 or u20, As the ZI8 here is a better cam in ways, never saying it is a better cam. that the zi8 will take a lower lux shot then the u series, I heard that Samsung mentions that the first gen of u10's were not the best, nor the worst. And that they said the second gens were the better of the other..

As having other features and functions the U10 can out proform the kodak zi8 hand behind the back, and other ways teh Kodak, it is of a prefrence, as long as teh cam can shoot video and captur to ones liking that to me is all that may matter.
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