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View Poll Results: Are you interested in going 4k, and how much are you prepared to pay?:
Like a regressive, I am not interested in going 4k. 0 0%
I am willing to pay more than $500 for a 4k ultrahd hybrid camera. 1 50.00%
I am willing to pay $300-$500 for a 4k ultrahd hybrid camera. 0 0%
I am willing to pay less $300 for a 4k ultrahd hybrid camera, you stooges. 1 50.00%
I am willing to pay more than $5000 for a 4k ultrahd TV. 0 0%
I am willing to pay more than $3000-$5000 for a 4k ultrahd TV. 1 50.00%
I am willing to pay more than $2000-$3000 for a 4k ultrahd TV. 0 0%
I am willing to pay less than $2000 for a 4k ultrahd TV, you stooges. 0 0%
I am willing to pay more than $1000 for a 4k ultrahd monitor or 27-32 inch TV set. 1 50.00%
I am willing to pay less than $1000 for a 4k ultrahd monitor or 27-32 inch TV set, please! 1 50.00%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 2. You may not vote on this poll

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Old Nov 4, 2012, 4:23 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UnknownVT View Post
FWIW - I'm still reading your guys.

Although, for now, 4k is a bit too rich for me -
too resource intensive and too expensive... for now.

But I am very interested in seeing what might come down the consumer pipeline - after all 36Mp was basically unimaginable in still photography 12 years ago when 2-3Mp was considered the high end.

Video in that period has only gone from the lowly 480p 640x480 to FullHD - 1080p 1920x1080 -

4k video may not seem that much of a leap in comparison - 4096x3072 - is about 12Mp -
however it is continuous at 30fps or even 60fps...
for today's technology is a high bit rate.......
thanks unknown, this is what keeps me going through thick-n-thin. having a discussion each and every day..
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Old Nov 5, 2012, 12:11 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UnknownVT View Post
4k video may not seem that much of a leap in comparison - 4096x3072 - is about 12Mp -
however it is continuous at 30fps or even 60fps...
for today's technology is a high bit rate.......
Thanks VT.

4k has long been passed, and as you see the gopro hero 3 4k edition and ambarella, security camera chip, it is heading down to our end. If you equate the encoding that our cameras did for fullhd p30, you see that 96mb/s gives image quality close to a zx3 at full quality (60mb/s is a ideal bottom end, 180mb/s better). If you trace the time between the zi8 or earlier hd2000 28mb/s, and the time it takes to double performance, you realise that we should be inline for this. Something like a hd2000 sized camera and price, might be first. But 4k should be more expensive camcorders years before this, and TV station eng shoulder cameras years before that, so we are way way over due (before the Red One from around 2006/2007 dud 4k, Olympus had one I think around 2004, and JVC had a prototype platform, and there was an American prototype camera. We have all Bern conned.

The reality is that there is still plenty of room for growth on top of the 96mb/s 4kp30, 4kp60 is ideal at least 120mb/s bottom, 192mb/s and 360mb/s top quality (p50 can use 1/6th less). H265 is coming to replace h264 in the cameras, which seems to be aiming at 50% data rate, but more complex and power hungry. I suspect we will get 60-96mb/s to start with, 120mb/s maybe if p60, and never really get past 200mb/s here.
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Old Nov 5, 2012, 11:41 AM   #33
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96mb/s gives image quality close to a zx3 at full quality (60mb/s is a ideal bottom end, 180mb/s better).
The reality is that there is still plenty of room for growth on top of the 96mb/s 4kp30, 4kp60 is ideal at least 120mb/s bottom, 192mb/s and 360mb/s top quality (p50 can use 1/6th less). H265 is coming to replace h264 in the cameras, which seems to be aiming at 50% data rate, but more complex and power hungry. I suspect we will get 60-96mb/s to start with, 120mb/s maybe if p60, and never really get past 200mb/s here.
Well, just one of the areas of possible restriction comes to mind -
removable flash storage media - like SD(HC) cards - current consumer upper limit is Class 10 which is 10MB/s minimum write speed = ~80-100mbits/s. This currently would then be marginal for, or below, the figures you suggested above.
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Old Nov 11, 2012, 11:19 AM   #34
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Class 10 is an old figure, long passed. It means at least 10 MB/s, I have one that will do 20 here. The pro Ines are going into far faster speeds. If they wanted to they could upgrade the standard to class 20 and 30. For us, we will probably get under 100mb/s.

Last edited by Wayne12; Nov 11, 2012 at 11:21 AM.
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Old Nov 11, 2012, 11:42 AM   #35
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Class 10 is an old figure, long passed. It means at least 10 MB/s, I have one that will do 20 here. The pro Ines are going into far faster speeds. If they wanted to they could upgrade the standard to class 20 and 30. For us, we will probably get under 100mb/s.
I do understand technology will move on and improve figures -
BUT Class 10 is not long passed -
it is currently the highest speed class rating (link) (Wikipedia link)
by the official body SD Association

The classification is for minimum sustained write speeds

You may well have a card that will do 20MB/s - is for that read speed? -
almost all cards have noticeably higher read speeds over write speeds,
although it is nice to have -
it is write speed that is the all important figure for recording videos.

FWIW - The new and emerging speed classification is UHS speed class
and not class 20+ as that is limited by the spec'd SD bus speed

I am not arguing against 4k video -
all I did was to point out
the current available (and more to the point affordable) technology
is not yet ready to support 4k video -
SD(HC/XC) cards are not rated high enough -
current SD(HC/XC) cards mostly do not do 20MB/s write,
no affordable 4k TVs, or computer monitors etc.

Last edited by UnknownVT; Nov 11, 2012 at 1:13 PM.
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Old Nov 11, 2012, 10:13 PM   #36
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My point was, that they can easily upgrade to a faster speed as they desire, and yes, I think that was 20MB/s write.

My other point was, that they are unlikely to change the standard because of these cameras, more likely for the more expensive consumer brand name cameras. So, it is likely, before a higher consumer spec comes out for the other cameras, ambarella will stick to a maxinum of the class 10.

My original point here, is that 4k is cheap and affordable enough for the under $500 market, even mobile phones (that are priced up on other things). It is just a conspiracy like shame 4k has been kept back for several years that it is now so cheap they are aiming it at mobile phones.
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Old Nov 11, 2012, 10:29 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayne12 View Post
My original point here, is that 4k is cheap and affordable enough for the under $500 market, even mobile phones (that are priced up on other things). It is just a conspiracy like shame 4k has been kept back for several years that it is now so cheap they are aiming it at mobile phones.
Cool - I look forward to cheap 4k pocket camcorders soon then -

hopefully everything else would also be upgraded affordably to support these cameras - like a 32" 4k TV for <$300 (not being ambitious - but I wish!), PC/Macs that can edit 4k videos without jitter - 4k monitors <$150 - the newer UHS SDHC/XC cards that can do 20MB/s write easily

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayne12 View Post
and yes, I think that was 20MB/s write.
Be very grateful for the name/model of your SD card that can do 20MB/s Write - I'd like to get one of those, please.

Thanks

Last edited by UnknownVT; Nov 11, 2012 at 10:32 PM.
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Old Nov 11, 2012, 10:50 PM   #38
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This link better describes it:
https://www.sdcard.org/consumers/speed/bus_speed

The bus speed specifies the highest minimum sustained write speeds that a card can be designed to support, not class ratings.

I have some sandisks as well.

Consumer:
http://www.sandisk.com/products/memo...?capacity=64GB
http://www.sandisk.com/products/memo...?capacity=64GB
http://www.sandisk.com/products/memo...capacity=128GB

Business:
http://www.sandisk.com/products/memory-cards/sd/oem/


The true minimal write speed is likely to be between class 10 and the upper rating (if designed to sustain it) but the maxinum available class speed to stamp on it is 10. If they wish, they could specify higher ratings (class 1 uhs has little practical meaning to a consumer). The defragmented nature of the speed ratings is also an issue.

Vincent, it is interesting the politics, that keep back specifications. But remember, ambarella was supporting the latest consumer card standard before there was much card in the market, and we bought 1080p cameras for over $299, when fullhd and computers to edit it were top end consumer items to own, and people struggled to edit it with intermediary codecs (could I suggest cineform as a higher end, if your editor and computer does not have processing /gpu processing power enough for native codec editing). Now we have fullhd video to show on our $299+ fullhd TV's on bluray, instead of sd dvd footage.

Intel now supports 4k native on newer consumer chipset computers (and multiple screen too) for 4k monitors and TV.

Sharp is behind on their plans, but their 4k LCD screens are coming. Apple is one of the customers. If you look at in perspective, their are new fullhd screens on mobile phones due. Next year will see the march of 4k. The higher the price the more years the adoption will take. Next year we will see how price goes and how long it should take,.

The issue is, that auto 3D TV is doable, and can affect 4k. So, this can play a role in how fast 4k gets adopted, as 4k auto 3d would be more desirable. I do not know at what level of readiness auto 3d is at, but give it a few years. They may end up being the $10k+ TV's on top of 4k 3d glasses TV and 4k tv (which might get squeezed out). It could be a lot more cost associated with auto 3d TV until it becomes cheaper to manufacture. One design I am aware of, needs three lcds in layers.

Thanks

Last edited by Wayne12; Nov 13, 2012 at 12:30 AM.
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Old Nov 11, 2012, 11:19 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayne12 View Post
This link better describes it:
https://www.sdcard.org/consumers/speed/bus_speed

The bus speed specifies the highest minimum sustained write speeds that a card can be designed to support, not class ratings.
Bus speeds are what theoretically can be supported - just like USB2.0 is supposed to be up to 54MB/s - how many USB2.0 flash drives can actually support write speeds of 54MB/s? NONE.

The Speed Class rating is exactly there to avoid misleading ads and a guaranteed performance in the all important sustained write rate.

Please see the reference on Speed Class Rating.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayne12 View Post
I have some sandisks as well.
Consumer:
http://www.sandisk.com/products/memo...?capacity=64GB
http://www.sandisk.com/products/memo...?capacity=64GB
http://www.sandisk.com/products/memo...capacity=128GB

Business:
http://www.sandisk.com/products/memory-cards/sd/oem/

The true minimal write speed is likely to be between class 10 and the upper rating (if designed to sustain it) but the maxinum available class speed to stamp on it is 10. If they wish, they could specify higher ratings (class 1 uhs has little practical meaning to a consumer). The defragmented nature of the speed ratings is also an issue.
Those are great cards the first you linked to
http://www.sandisk.com/products/memo...?capacity=64GB
is $150 > pocket HD camcorder prices.

The second:
http://www.sandisk.com/products/memo...?capacity=64GB
please notice the very careful wording:
Quote:
Quick transfer speeds up to 30MB/s**
that is a READ speed not a write - because they say this iin the specs:
Quote:
Performance/speed: Up to 30MB/s read speed; write speed lower
There are very high speed SD cards - but most of them are very expensive - for now -
the commonly available and affordable ones are class 10 - and although as you say there may be some that are higher speeds
most barely make 10MB/s sustained write.

The last link:
http://www.sandisk.com/products/memory-cards/sd/oem/
does not point at any specific card -
but their product line:
Quote:
Specifications

Performance Product Line
Capacities: 2GB - 32GB**
Class 4

High Performance Product Line
Capacities: 4B - 64GB
Class 6

Superior Performance Product Line
Capacities: 8GB - 32GB
UHS-I
Class 10
30MB/s Write, 30MB/s Read**

You actually have all these cards?
probably could have bought a 4k camcorder for the prices

Last edited by UnknownVT; Nov 11, 2012 at 11:22 PM.
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Old Nov 11, 2012, 11:53 PM   #40
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USB2.0 is a very bad design in this respect, a proper SD card chipset is another thing, hardly even comparable in that respect. Still my statement holds, that what can, even if theoretically, be done.

I know what the speed rating is meant to be, but it does not limit the speed of writing or technology can obtain.

Vincent how does the price of the biggest card, now, reflect the usability of smaller cards, or the price in future? It is just an example of the higher speed there, but they really need to lift the speed class to get rid of confusion. It merely illustrates that there is room between the class rating and highest speed of 95MB/s for a minimum write speed higher than class 10. Do you really think that class 10 at max 95MB/s read likely has the same true minimum write speed as the class 10 at max 30MB/s read? I have a couple of small sandisks 30/45MB/s as well and am certain I have gotten 15MB/s. I ussually don't use for cameras. The issue for testing is, windows indexing off, virus/security scanning of access off, target speed, if the SD port is on a USB bus instead of native, system performance etc. Not simple with these things interfering.

If we look at ssd's we see up to over 300MB/s sustained writes, their is design knowledge to go past class 10 for years, and even though the working of the interface plays it's part, on a high speed interface, it is often the flash design itself that is a limiting factor.


I'm not feeling well today, but I try to write everything truthfully and backed up with reason.

re-edit:
Looking at the posts. It is not confusing, the class 10 rating does not specify the maxinum sustainable write speed, but the minimum, that it is or exceeds,10MB/s.

Last edited by Wayne12; Nov 13, 2012 at 12:31 AM.
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