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View Poll Results: Are you interested in going 4k, and how much are you prepared to pay?:
Like a regressive, I am not interested in going 4k. 0 0%
I am willing to pay more than $500 for a 4k ultrahd hybrid camera. 1 50.00%
I am willing to pay $300-$500 for a 4k ultrahd hybrid camera. 0 0%
I am willing to pay less $300 for a 4k ultrahd hybrid camera, you stooges. 1 50.00%
I am willing to pay more than $5000 for a 4k ultrahd TV. 0 0%
I am willing to pay more than $3000-$5000 for a 4k ultrahd TV. 1 50.00%
I am willing to pay more than $2000-$3000 for a 4k ultrahd TV. 0 0%
I am willing to pay less than $2000 for a 4k ultrahd TV, you stooges. 0 0%
I am willing to pay more than $1000 for a 4k ultrahd monitor or 27-32 inch TV set. 1 50.00%
I am willing to pay less than $1000 for a 4k ultrahd monitor or 27-32 inch TV set, please! 1 50.00%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 2. You may not vote on this poll

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Old Nov 12, 2012, 1:27 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayne12 View Post
I'm not feeling well today, but I try to write everything truthfully and backed up with reason.
sorry to hear that - we are talking cross-purposes and getting into a debate over nothing - all I ever tried to say is that in today's consumer and affordable technology - the components are not yet in place to support 4k video - I used SD cards as an example - let's just drop that, since you think they are available, and I think they are - but too expensive - more than the cost of a pocket HD camcorder for a mere 64GB - which BTW can buy 2x 1TB HDs.....

OK where are the consumer 4k TV sets then -
of course, the technology is all there
but the makers have not found it economical enough to produce them for the typical consumer -
neither are there 4k computer monitors - surely that's where they should produce them for the techies, and videophiles?
OK, I am sure they exist - but they just aren't available, yet,
and I am not talking about WalMart -
but the more tech savvy vendors.

I agree they will be there - all I am saying is that there has to be a lot of supporting technology to be in place before 4k video and camcorders can truly take off - they just are not currently available yet.

Hope you feel better soon.
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Old Nov 12, 2012, 4:08 AM   #42
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Vincent, I knew it was cross purposes from the beginning, that is what I was trying to explain. There is always somebody at cross purposes, I mean always, it takes things off topic for why people are coming here, to check news. I don't mind answering the cross purposes, as others can learn something about how it works, but when the cross purposes goes on and on, it can be a turn off.

For everybody, if we can avoid long non 4k stuff, it keeps it interesting. It does not matter if people say I found this, or I found that, and this helps, this is how it works, and isn't x y z great, or how does it work, that is what it is about, without getting bogged down in cross purposes.

I've got to keep my stuff down so people don't turn off, but being a designer there is literally heaps to discuss. I'm designing various software and hardware systems, leading edge processor, display and storage techniques, so it is all intensely interesting to get back into what everybody else is doing, and tracking how the true politics of the market works for decades.


A summary:

First cheap 4K cameras will probably work on cheap class ten cards, or type 1 uhs at the most.
If the industry wants they an go faster quickly, cards will come down.
If people want to save money, they can buy one or two cards and back them up to their computer or tablet the backup drive.
The camera technology is cheap enough, but extras might not, but eventually come down.
We buy the camera to view footage on a future cheap 4k TV, as we did with our Fullhd cameras in the past.
Cheaper 4k TVs are in a previous post, and they are a middle class price.

4k cheap cameras are a good deal, the footage makes a nice fullhd picture downscaled, and people film 4k footage to watch on their future TV's.

I have suggested they include a verified USB backup menu item on camera (useful to USB key, hard drive or optical disk burner). If you go a step further you can have two hosts on camera and manage backups between multiple drives. Costs, not that much for a a $299+ top end ambarella camera.

What normally produces these discussions, is what companies portray in their marketing. 90% of people may come from that angle, be cynical, be very cynical. It is not about what is out there now, in technologies, standards or cost, or price. Up to ten percent of people may come from that angle. It is about what can be done in future, what can be made to happen, but also about how likely when considering market forces and politics. To say that just because hdmi, as an example, is like this now, is to say they can't release a better version of it, but they do.

Owning the cheap 4k cameras gives us imperative to get a 4k TV when it comes within our price range, where ever millionaire or a laborer, raising initial sales volume (which is ussually small) leading to less cost. Long story short, quicker sales, more competition, can help speed up market acceptance and price drops into the $6-10k range, then the $3-6k range, which gas high volume and profit margin potential without effecting the lower end fullhd sales that are on more mature multi billion dollar production lines. Once the lines are pad for there is more profit margin potential in keeping those lines producing fullhd. Thus produces a stratification of products, that is highly desirable to manufactures, as it helps maintain a profit margin on high end product like 4k as a 'luxury' product, while allowing higher margins on the fullhd lines, that would be crushed if 4k came down in price. What happens over time, and already has, is that people slow down buying high end fullhd and fullhd in the mid range, 4k profit margin goes up, to get people with the money buying mid range again, competition forces the price down into the mid range. So, for now they are milking the rich, when that slows down they will drop prices hopefully, to milk the not so rich, when they finish milking the middle class with fullhd, they can bring 4k down. They take a profit times volume viewpoint into the future, if they can make the money on fullhd why nit, sort of thing. Now, no name brands don't have the rich, so they will jump to the middle range as quick as possible (realising how many name brands might have fingers in their trade). So next year, the brands might get into the mid range (due to the no name brand competition) or within the next 2-3 years, other factors can speed or slow, like marketable competing technology (auto 3d fullhd, old etc). Cheap (under $3k competition maybe next year or the year after). Under $1k small, under $2k family size, maybe shortly after that (maybe a year or less). Complex reasons. It maybe faster or slower depending on how the wind blows. However, this has little to do with actual cost compared to setting up a new fullhd manufacturing plant. At the moment they would be nutting out how to manufacture it in higher volumes cheaper, which is the issue with the low release of oled sets due this year.

4k monitors where on the market around 10 years ago, as were prototype 4k cameras, and I think there was a broadcast one 8 years ago, but I forget. But the industry did not want the extra expense when they where struggling to get fullhd the standard. Sony was trying to outfit companies with their 1080 standard equipment. 720p HD was the one that actually fitted the technology better, and would have been a good path to 1440p when h264 comes through, which we still struggle with. They did not worry about the computer market, where 4k for cad, design, 3D, photography etc, were desirable, and needed in photography long ago. All this was pushed aside and TV concentrated on. Nvidia tried around 2006-2007 to propose a 4k standard for their cards and monitors. Around that time cheap LCD OEM manufacturer was ramping up with 4k 50 inch+, 30 inch and I think 27 inch. Gateway/Dell were talking about introducing 4k after that. + many other missed opportunities since. Other factors were the gfc pulling consumer spending back, and manufacturers back from releasing new technology. A bit difficult, if you have limited money you don't really want to spend it on another fullhd tv, but 4k. Then we had the Japanese tsunami and Thailand floods. They hit various industries, semiconductor and various camera parts in particular for us. This put spanners in the works of various release schedules, including cameras.

Last edited by Wayne12; Nov 16, 2012 at 9:04 PM.
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Old Nov 12, 2012, 4:45 AM   #43
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Default 4k monitor delays, and others.

Back to news subjects

As stated previously there have been tsunamis and flooding have delayed various things in the industry.

Sharp have been working on their igzo LCD technology for years. It allows 90% through put of light, compared to previous good 50% screens. It runs much lower power, I think fast response. I suspect the viewsonic 4k monitor is based on this, which has had glowing testimonials. I also suspect that this is a wide color gamut monitor (color range). Therefore, I suspect it will be very close in performance to organic led tv's which has been held back due to production yield issues. Sharp has been known for wide viewing angles as well, which more TV's now have.

However, their release timeline has been held back, but 30 inch+ were due late this year or early the next, from memory. Bigger 4k panels before that.

There was talk of a modern lay down flat 4-5k touch IMac earlier this year. I suspect it was meant to have sharp panels or lg oled (as a possible preempter to the Apple range of TV sets that were to use the lg oled panels.) but was delayed by the sharp delay. Apple is a major investor in Sharp that is being taken over by fox con, I think from memory, that manufactures for Apple.

The 4k monitor market is due to ramp up soon. I suspect the monitors that use these sharp panels might be the best. There might be mire hews before Christmas, but the consumer electronic show in Las Vegas early January will be the place to keep an eye in for monitors, cameras and TV's.

Sorry this has not been so well written.

Last edited by Wayne12; Nov 16, 2012 at 8:15 PM.
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Old Nov 13, 2012, 4:12 AM   #44
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Default 4K UHD TV's stateside

OK, Hisense has announced 4k UHD 50, 58 and 65 inch TV's on the American market:
http://www.engadget.com/2012/11/07/h...ith-the-xt880/

Unfortunately it was the 50 inch that was to be less than $6000 according to this article:

http://gizmodo.com/5953002/this-no+n...k-sonys-4k-ass

OK, confusion, here it says to be shown at ces:

http://hisense-usa.com/pr/prFull.asp?prID=14


9.6 inch 4k:
http://www.ortustech.co.jp/english/news/20121023.html

Last edited by Wayne12; Nov 13, 2012 at 4:29 AM.
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Old Nov 19, 2012, 10:24 AM   #45
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Something is wrong in the post function at the moment, I am loading posts when I go out of the edit box, re-writing, and they turn up again etc.

The problem with 4k article;:
http://www.gizmodo.com.au/2012/09/the-problem-with-4k/

On this article. Summary of lost post:

- Read an opinion that there are so many 5k resolution Red Epic cameras out there in rental houses, that every film production in the word could be filmed on them simultaneously.

- Sony has released their 4k production codec, they have a cheaper $7k camera for 4k.
- Jvc has that 4k camera for $5k.

- These prices are rather cheap for top end productions. Some people have recovered their money for their $36k etc cameras in the first production, not that many of us would be that good or experienced to do that.

- Until broadcast 4k comes, we need a way to watch programs. Read on. Red has apparently a deal with a major online video service to use their redray codec. Redray can deliver theater quality 4k (much better quality tan normal broadcast TV) to your 4k TV. They can tap into the pool of 4k cameras out there for high end and low end professional 4k content.

- YouTube, that is going towards TV channels on their site, has announced high quality 4k content too.

http://www.gizmodo.com.au/2010/07/yo...ity-4k-videos/

So you should not think there will be nothing at all to watch.


First native 4k TV show:
http://www.engadget.com/2012/11/16/3...s-4k-3d-space/

New TV Technologies:
http://www.gizmodo.com.au/2012/01/gi...s-so-gorgeous/
http://www.gizmodo.com.au/2012/01/th...mple-and-good/
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Old Nov 20, 2012, 7:20 AM   #46
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To carry on from the content question of the last post, Sony has announced they have a 4k delivery system that will come with their rather impressive (in size and price) 4k TV's. This may mean players, PS4 and even PS3 (I imagine it probably can do it, even if not too much else when doing it), only conjecture.

http://www.engadget.com/2012/11/19/s...livery-system/
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Old Nov 20, 2012, 9:09 AM   #47
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$24grand is a lot of money for an 80 inch tv and especially the room I have that will take one whole wall up. I have to move to a bigger apartment or house. With families out there many do not live on the lap of luxury. A simple 42 inch tv will do for me. I love to have a 4k system but how much crisper will it be compared to the hd1080p or I we already own. Yes 4k you can crop right down into. That last pixel and expand to hd1080 without loss quality.
I feel it is a must have for professionals and on a wish list for an average family their life time savings.

Wayne. It is very impressive. Seeing the 4k at a commercial place for advertisement or amusement, sports , entertainment. But in a house that is another story.

Excellent comment and info appreciate The hard work.
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Old Nov 21, 2012, 6:59 PM   #48
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The GoPro Hero3's 4K Resolution Is Wonderfully Useless



Thank you.

I own a GPH2, I enjoy the cam to a certain extent. When Gopro.com got together with Protunes.com to release their latest and greatest firmware, they offered a ton of bugs? Each camera will have certain issue, if a battery issue, hdtv port issue, photo lock issue and so on. They just released latest firmware with no info, unless I did not read it, yesterday? unclear if it corrects the issues. The firmware offers 24P, higher bit rate double the rate, and allowing to perfect your video, but comes with a big price to pay battery consumption. And file size, increased,, is that a sacrifice to pay better with less?

Now GPH3 came out and the article presented to me (thank you) I read. understand the good side and bad side.

Gizmodo did something not great at Las vegas and made head line news, I forgot what it was, something about manipulating tv sets all at one time or something. So his articles are attention getters, but I do not hold that against him or others?

He only talks about 4k, and how it caters to the newest tv, previously posted? And about 15fps .

Gopro.coms GPH3, offers the latest and greatest cam? The Black edition, with only HD1080P fov ultrawide, med and narrow. and locks most features, yet if I am not mistaken, at 4K 15 fps and no recorded audio?

Now I am sure that was what I read, and heard from others? so Gizmodo is blowing steam, nothing more.

Now if you can make some sense out ofit

Black edition all features and fuction unlocked. top dollar

Silver less features and function unlocked

White edition limited features and functions.

WIth all these cameras yet I see a lot of features unlocked, and I go with how my sony I own, for example

video I cannot unlock the brightness in thehx9v, but the next model up I can?

We are locked in purchasing higher models to achieve what we are after and that leads us out of this ball park to expensive for my blood, why Wayne said get together a group, make our own and put these companies to shame limiting the use of a camera.

I understand wit the gopro, the chip, hardware can only allow some features to be unlocked. until a bigger camera can be made. Now that gopro made the cam smaller and thinner, imagine if they kept the same size and all then we have that better cm? at a higher price to pay.

Gopro is awesome the trademark of distortion, but comes with limitations I can now live without. I love the idea of a higher quality, but who will get to enjoy this while I have to work and pay for it Lol.

Gopro did not rush this to market they given us a camera with many firmware issues, and pushed this all on the public, yet not mentioned, the ycater to sell, and not care for the customer. that is how I feel grab your money and run.

Now since gopro released this what about JVC newest model, and sony think this was the trend wit the Aipteks ha ha ha

to late to grab the people in I gave up trying my life has changed due to the net.

I do apologize for not correcting my typing.
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Old Nov 30, 2012, 9:50 PM   #49
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Now a matter of waiting. I was hopeful they (main manufacturers) would keep their $7k word, and we see $5k sets from other manufacturers, and monitors and 4k ambarella cameras this year, but everybody has slowed right down, shuffling their feet, trying to sell us more of what we don't need more of because we are holding onto our money. Maybe it is the economic news of the last few years, but eventually if they keep delaying people will get so apathetic that even $2000, 4k 3D TV's might be uninteresting to them. Look at laser TV, wonderful but instead of the intended $1600 price, it was money time in the economy, and they aimed it $7k just as the crash was setting in, that killed the potential. I think the 4k name brands are just ticking over on low numbers high profit margins, which is bad compared to high volume nice profit, but they think it is safe. But, like ambarella did in cameras, they are not safe, there is low end OEM manufacturers willing to undercut them. What happens, is that high priced companies try to get their fingers into every body's pie. They can buy this or that company or manufacturer that could threaten them, they can do special licensing deals that depend on a lack of support for competition, they can undercut and eliminate competition and can jack up prices afterwards, they can cross supply parts and manufacture with, supposed, competitors, eliminating competition and setting what is available for competitor's manufacture, they can concur on standards of how things are done in operation, and can silently lock step on market stratification of model levels and features, pushing cheap but best features way up in price, Mostly 100% legal, sort of.

Now for ambarella. A lot has changed, a lot of those expensive cheap name brand camcorders probably use their chips. Their are a lot of fingers in the low end market. I can no longer talk to them. So, there comes a question, should I loyalty continue to support them or start my own camera chipset. Like them, I also have access to industry leading chip design and cutting edge technology. The latest updates point to the possibility of 4k and 8k functionality easily. The thought of a 100 million sale consumer camera with pro support for $200 is tantalizing, to say the least. I wonder who's side it would be best to be on.

So CES and all January is the next period.

Last edited by Wayne12; Nov 30, 2012 at 10:22 PM.
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Old Nov 30, 2012, 11:07 PM   #50
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Default 4k Red player and Sharp 4k monitor etc.

Just back to check some things out. Still no cheap this week, but found some of these:

Red, has finally announced pre-orders on their Redray player. This device delivers theater quality 4k content into your lounge room through the ODEMAX network. In a number of ways this is supposed to be superior to your normal broadcast or cable TV or bluray (going on eyewitness reports). In compression rendering, it not only uses a lot less data than the competition for the quality, the quality produced is superior. The pixel accuracy is professional level, with around 4096 levels of brightness instead of 256 levels, and 4:2:2 pixel format instead of 4:2:0. It is 4k ultra hd resolution with 3D.


http://www.red.com/news/redray-has-arrived
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthr...p?90306-REDRAY
http://www.red.com/store/products/re...=REDRAY_Launch


The price is steep, but I am waiting for a software player version.

Sharp has announced, sort of, their 4k 32 inch igzo monitor, but no price, and release next year. Speculative price is over $5k, but will likely be the top quality 4k monitor tech unless they release oled versions etc.

http://www.tomshardware.com/news/IGZ...DMI,19403.html
http://www.engadget.com/2012/11/27/s...o-lcd-monitor/


More on the Sony 4k media service:

http://www.engadget.com/2012/11/29/s...phil-molyneux/


But remember, that all you need to start your 4k adventure, is a 4k ultra HD hybrid camera.
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