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Zen Jul 30, 2004 3:28 AM

I found your great :cool: forum and I have read much, but maybe you can help me on a few questions I still have, to decide if M410R will do the my first digital camera! (newbie with ambitions)

The basic reason I'm concidering to buy it, is it's unlimited 3fps mode, so:

1. Is there support for 1GB SD cards? Panasonic Sandisk and Kingmax are selling 1GB high speed (60x) SD already.

2. Except the 3.3fps, is there support for e.g 1 fps non-stop?

3. Can the camera send each 4MP image through USB to an external storage device (or PC) *instead* of writing it to the card? (with ~480Mbit USB2, 2MByte transfer needs no more than 1/30 of a second).
If not, do you know of another camera with this capability? (except medical/security/surveillance/industrial/experimental and!)

4. How fast can you upload the images to the PC through USB2 after the card is full? Or in other words, does it support the "Hi-Speed" (480mbit=60MBytes/sec), "Full-Speed" (12mbit=1.5MBytes/sec) or the "Low-Speed" (1.5Mbit=0.1875MByte/sec)?
Of course that will be the "Full" or the "High" mode in this case.

5. Do you feel that the noise in the images somewhat dissapoint you sometimes?

6. I've seen reviews and a few samples, but I need the actual user's opinion: In what area the quality of the image of the M410R could be improved more: on the noise department or the color rendition department?

(by the way, I tried to download the manual but the page is missing from the US site)

Any input will be appreciated, thanx!

TC3 Jul 30, 2004 7:05 AM

1. Yes i am sure that you can use 1GB cards in it

2. You can have the 3 fps or the 2 fps. Difference is that the 3 fps will take pics at the same focus as the very first pic that starts the shoot off. The 2 fps will re focus every 2 frames and you can keep your finger on the shutter till the card is full in both modes

3. Never bothered to look it up as i do not need that

4. I use a usb2 card reader made by PCI and it transfers the pics fast enough using it or the camera with usb connected. Stop being so fussy as it really is fast enough as long as you use fast cards

5+ 6. Noise isnt much of an issue at all and is better then most cameras i have used. Colour is good and you can adjust contrast, colour and sharpening in camera if you want

I am very happy with the camera. The odd pic might need a touch up in a software programme every now and then but who cares, thats part of the fun and this camera is excellent value for money

Good luck with whatever you buy

stez Jul 30, 2004 12:47 PM

1 & 2 - TC3 answered for you. The move mode is also a good one on this camera with good sounds.

3) No, you can't send pictures directly to the PC from the camera - it has to be stored on the memory card first. I've not come accross a consumer or prosumer digital camera with this feature - I've researched extensively before picking for this camera.

4) The camera supports full USB2 speeds and lower USB speeds - a different light is displayed on the front when USB2 is detected, therefore you theorectically can transfer upto 60MB/sec (in reality, USB2 ever reach the maximum throughput due to tons of other factors such as computer specs).

5) I can't say I've noticed noise - yet, but if you are really picky, I suggest you look at what Steve thought of it in his review of the M410R in detail? People seems to whinge at underexposure and the flash being too powerfulrather than noise - but I suspect this is down to not knowing how the camera behaves and I'm sure the underexposed pictures made to expose correctly, and the same with flash.

6) Improvements? Not without jacking the price up beyond what I could afford!With respect to noise/colour rendition - I'd probably say, if I'mreally pushed, the colour rendition in bright sunshine - butto achieve truer than this, you'd be going into the SLR market or tradditional film.

It is a quality constructed camera - built like a brick andprobably weighs as much and I haven't regretted buying this for my own needs - however, different cameras are for different people and their needs.

What do you plan on using the camera for? Perhaps we could better answer your questions then?

Zen Jul 30, 2004 3:19 PM

Thanx TC3 and STEG for your response!

My first priority is the 3fps continued capture. The quality is second, the price is ...fourth.

It's about an experiment of mine (too weird to tell!) that demands at least 3fps at the highest quality.

So, I will buy this camera only if I can't find another one with *higher* quality that can record at *retained* 3fps mode untill the card is full. By the way I'm considering the Nikon D70. I know it sound silly, it's another class, price range etc but these are the only two cameras I found that claim 3fps continued shooting. Right now I'm invetigating the D70.

by the way,
Compare these two sample images for each camera (the same subject).Look especially at the fat noise on the sky, and the blurred grass and sea on M410's sample.



I resized and then cropped the D70's sample to the exact size of M410's and the difference remained huge. The kyocera appears far more noisy, blurred and with less saturation.

I then smartblurred in PS (the M410's sample) only the blue in the sky with "select color range" with fuzziness tolerance=91, then inversed the selection and did an unsharp mask on the rest on the image, then increased the saturation. The differences between the two became less noticeable, but the Nikon's remained superior without even a touch on it!

Now don't get me wrong! That was just an attempt to see the exact quality differences between the two and the required efford to improve the M410R's sample to a satisfactory level (because I like the Kyocera and it's 3.3fps vs 2.9-3.0fps of D70) -not to find out which is better! I do believe the M410R is a bargain in this price for what it offers!

thanx again!

TC3 Jul 30, 2004 4:49 PM

How can you compare a digital slr to the M410R? They are two entirely different classes of camera and a big price difference. It is a fact that a digi slr will give less noise. I myself decided to get the Kyocera cos it suits my needs and is all in a neat compact size. The money i saved if i had bought a digi slr will in fact buy me the new Pentax slr when it comes out. So two cameras for the price of a Nikon D70 which is a huge bulk of a camera and i hate holding it. The pentax will be smaller for certain and will give you less noise of course.

I do not crop to the extremes you have done and print no larger then A4 so noise has really not been a problem for me at all and i have done several night shots without evident noise

Zen Jul 30, 2004 6:52 PM

"How can you compare a digital slr to the M410R?"

Tc3, you can compare *any* two items if they have at least one common parameter. You can compare even the earth to an apple! In that case the common parameter could be the size, the volume, the roundness, or the mass for example.

"They are two entirely different classes of camera and a big price difference"

I wrote that before myself, to avoid misunderstandings...
Also, I wrote that in my case the price comes fourth, so the price difference is not of great importance for me.

"It is a fact that a digi slr will give less noise...."

Of course it's a fact that a digital SLR will give less noise but how far are they really? If you need to decrease the difference by post-processing the pictures, what is the required amount of effort and time and what can you achieve?

But anyway, these were my thoughts:

1. To judge anything, you have to compare it with a reference. Something that you know is good eg.the D70.
2. If you need the 80% of the quality that the reference (the D70) outputs, and the M410R outputs 50% is it possible to increase it (perceptually) to 80% with X amount of effort? If so, is X amount of effort too much?
3. As frames per second is my 1st priority with an absolute minimum of 2.9fps and Nikon gives 2.9-3.0 fps vs Kyocera's 3.3fps, if the difference between them is huge then the second priority (quality) comes first so I'd have to choose Nikon.

...and as I wrote it will be my first camera. I don't have the experience to judge with confidence, so I have to think more, ask more and ...experiment!

thanx for the response!

TC3 Jul 31, 2004 1:59 AM

Zen, you should just go to a shop and try them both out as 2.9 and 3.3 fps might not make much difference.If it was such a big deal to me i wouldnt listen to anyone and would want to find out myself

Ok lets compare the earth and an apple:roll:

Zen Jul 31, 2004 1:03 PM

"Zen, you should just go to a shop and try them both out as 2.9 and 3.3 fps might not make much difference. If it was such a big deal to me i wouldnt listen to anyone and would want to find out myself"

That's my next move torture the lucky sales persons!

stez Aug 1, 2004 4:30 PM

Yes, always try them out in the shops. If they aren't helpful, then they aren't deserving of your money.

You already decided that the M410R is pretty noisy compared to thedSLR D70and is only saved by 0.4 fps difference in continuous mode which you said is your first priority - the higher the continuous speed the better. Ialso have accessto a Fuji S5000which is considerably noisy to the point of distraction in some shots - the M410R produces noticeable noise in very low light conditions.

You wouldn't be in the porn industry or anything are you seeing as you're slightly embarrassed to explain what your planned usage and wanting something that captures every moment? :cool:

Zen Aug 1, 2004 6:53 PM

"You wouldn't be in the porn industry or anything are you seeing as you're slightly embarrassed to explain what your planned usage and wanting something that captures every moment?"

...every HOT moment!


But think: Maybe..."you don't want to know"! :doh:


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