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Old Jul 24, 2007, 1:13 PM   #11
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JDar wrote:

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... rock drawings done by the Jornado Mogollon people, thought to have be done from about 900 AD to 1400 AD, though they inhabited the area earlier than that. There are about 20,000 of the drawings in this area; most are located in a particular area but it's fun to hike to some of the out of the way ones.

These are in south-central New Mexico. These drawings seem much more primitive than the Tanum ones. I think no attempt has been made at preservation.

Wouldn't it be an interesting doctoral thesis topic to do a comparative study of rock drawings around the world (as well as fun to travel to all of them.)
Thank you very much for your postings, the pictures and the texts. Very interesting and also well photographed

I had no idea about the Jornado Mogollon people. You´ve opened my eyes to early North American history

What do you think about this site (is it accurate)

http://www.desertusa.com/ind1/du_peo_mog.html


There are two concepts involved in these areas of scientific endeavour

"prehistoric" (prehistory, prehistorical etc) as opposed tio "historic" ...

"primitive" as opposed to "civilized"

I find these concepts somewhat troublesome. From what vantage point are they used



Thanks again, JDar. You´ve made this thread into a double adventure


Torgny


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Old Jul 24, 2007, 1:21 PM   #12
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toshi43 wrote:
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Thanks for posting this, Torgny. Aside from the messages they were intended to convey, the level of artistic expression and expertise that went into making these astonishing glyphs is mind-boggling. They were obviously done with a great deal of feeling and imagination and look almost like modern abstract art. Truly amazing stuff.
Thank you for posting replies to these three intertwined rock carving threads. It has taken a little while. Thanks for taking part

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Old Jul 24, 2007, 2:43 PM   #13
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Torgny,
<<<There are two concepts involved in these areas of scientific endeavour

"prehistoric" (prehistory, prehistorical etc) as opposed tio "historic" ...

"primitive" as opposed to "civilized"

I find these concepts somewhat troublesome. From what vantage point are they used>>>

I think the url you cited had accurate information, certainly much more than I could ever have come up with. The Mogollon culture was over much of southern and south central NM, however, not all of them did petroglyphs. I've seen some interesting pigmented drawings on rock walls near the cliff dweller places father west (supposedly same people) and some spectacular decorated pottery from the cliff dwellers.

Prehistoric and historic seems to be arbitrary terms that "modern" historians use and it does seem to unfairly deny some of the ancients their due, and we all would probably agree that primitive exists to this day, square in the middle of civilized, even if prehistoric is gone. (Until we perhaps are called that in another thousand years or so.)

Thanks again for all the work you have put into showing Tanum's drawing to us.

Joe
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Old Jul 25, 2007, 3:19 AM   #14
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Torgny,I followed your series I, II & III with great pleasure

Actually, theartisticand communicative merits of humans know no borders regardless of time and place!

While quite admiringyour comparative images with JDar (whosefine appreciation is so obvious here),I stillfind it necessary to point outmy side of the issue as a, eh!, so called modern academician : )

The invention of writing is the main distinction between the Historic and the Prehistoric, since history can be defined as the recorded evidence of human events. After the invention of writing, except some far off isolated ones, no society remained prehistoric, as literate societies also recorded the history of societies who could not write or did not use writing so often!

It seems the more these literate societies recorded their events, the more they followed a method in their events depending on their earlier records. True, humans had achieved many things before they invented writing, but at a relatively slower pace when compared with later achievements. While centuries can be regarded as merely fractions in Prehistory, roughly fifty centuries after the invention of writing, humans managed to somersault on the moon!

To conclude, Prehistory( which isno less than amajor! ) means much much more thanan arbitrary termtomodern historiansall of whom took pains to attainduring their university education, and later, many of whom dedicated their lives for...



Cheers !




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Old Jul 25, 2007, 3:56 AM   #15
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bahadir wrote:
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Torgny,I followed your series I, II & III with great pleasure

Actually, theartisticand communicative merits of humans know no borders regardless of time and place!

While quite admiringyour comparative images with JDar (whosefine appreciation is so obvious here),I stillfind it necessary to point outmy side of the issue as a, eh!, so called modern academician : )

The invention of writing is the main distinction between the Historic and the Prehistoric, since history can be defined as the recorded evidence of human events. After the invention of writing, except some far off isolated ones, no society remained prehistoric, as literate societies also recorded the history of societies who could not write or did not use writing so often!

It seems the more these literate societies recorded their events, the more they followed a method in their events depending on their earlier records. True, humans had achieved many things before they invented writing, but at a relatively slower pace when compared with later achievements. While centuries can be regarded as merely fractions in Prehistory, roughly fifty centuries after the invention of writing, humans managed to somersault on the moon!

To conclude, Prehistory ( which isno less than amajor! ) means much much more thanan arbitrary termtomodern historiansall of whom took pains to attainduring their university education, and later, many of whom dedicated their lives for...



Cheers !

Those are important remarks. That definition of history may serve its purpose. I once studied social anthropology / ethnology. I remember one thing very well: the importance of a verbal tradition.

Stories being told and retold for generations. What is "culture" other than a set of stories, interpretations of what has happened and matrixes to understand

We sure can thank all those in the past (and now) who have made (makes) the effort to write down the (hi)stories so we can study it consistently

The definition of "language", written or not, is arbitrary, I think.

Thanks for the reply. Let´s also see what JDar has to say on theese matters, unless he is out in the desert somewhere, looking for carvings and/or other things

Skål!


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Old Jul 25, 2007, 8:49 AM   #16
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<<<Actually, the artistic and communicative merits of humans know no borders regardless of time and place! >>>

Bahadir, you put the concern into words so well. Your explanation of historic and prehistoric makes perfect sense and such a vocabulary for the expert in the study is missing from those who appreciate and poke around in the expert's territory without training (such as I.)
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Old Jul 26, 2007, 6:02 AM   #17
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@ Torgny:
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Stories being told and retold for generations. What is "culture" other than a set of stories, interpretations of what has happened and matrixes to understand

We sure can thank all those in the past (and now) who have made (makes) the effort to write down the (hi)stories so we can study it consistently
This has been a good beginning to explain what culture is...but a limited one I am afraid! The means and way you produce and the way you consume, the technology you use while producing, your science, your art, even what you eat and how you cook makewhat is called'culture'. Ah! as Rodin points out, no part shoud surpass the whole ; )

You were almost about two say that there are two types: The ones that record the history and the ones to execute it :-)Still, thanks for the credit! Aren't the ones who make history are also the ones who read it more exclusively than others? ( rather than listening tothe stories told around ) We all know how unpredictable the oral narration could be even fromchildhoodwhen weplayed a game called 'from ear to ear' in my mother tongue!

Please do not think I am underestimating the importance of oral or verbal tradition. On the contrary, they shoud be studied and recorded before they were partially or totally forgotten of alltogether converted, to be lain on a desk for further comperative and through studies! Ah,I don't think I should go into the matter why that should be necessary in a word where the number of knowledgehas beenincreasing in geometrical scale!

Btw, the whole Anthropology may serve into some purpose as with the definition of history: )

The first anthropological studies started as an effort to legitimaze the colonizing European Nations' global dominance motivated by their profit oriented capitalist economies and to make use of the different cultures they met, since every rational effort should have a return!

Since 1960's with the unifying melting pot theory giving way to mosaic theory at which the ethnical diffferences are preserved and their unmatching expectations bring a pluralist philosophy in the social field, whether the Diaspora Studies of Anthropology which gained speed quite appropriate for the decomposing and recomposing meaning of post modernism, will pave the way to reshaping the ‘target countries' in the service of global capitalism remains to be seen!

The interesting thing is, a branch called Cultural Studies formerly a branch of Anthropology and later liberated from it questioning the methods of Anthropology. This (again!) post modern approach which consider every knowledge a product of the culture concludes that the studies of anthropology cannot be objective and argues whether Antropology can be regarded a science or not!

Dear Torgny, I think I know what I am talking about since my field of Doctorate was Anthropology:!:

Anyway, what may or may not be the answer of these questions,I belive that even the direction of gearwheels could be changed if forced!



Cheers : )

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Old Jul 26, 2007, 6:03 AM   #18
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@ JDar :

Humbled by your kind appreciation !

Ifeel very happy tobe a stutent in photography class withworthy friendssuch as yourself : )
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Old Jul 26, 2007, 6:34 AM   #19
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Interesting pictorial tables, I wonder if they depict a story or serve

as an alphabet to teach written language to the novices.

I mean a lot of the carvings that were found.

.................musket

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Old Jul 26, 2007, 8:01 AM   #20
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bahadir wrote:
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@ Torgny:
Quote:
Stories being told and retold for generations. What is "culture" other than a set of stories, interpretations of what has happened and matrixes to understand

We sure can thank all those in the past (and now) who have made (makes) the effort to write down the (hi)stories so we can study it consistently
This has been a good beginning to explain what culture is...but a limited one I am afraid! The means and way you produce and the way you consume, the technology you use while producing, your science, your art, even what you eat and how you cook makewhat is called'culture'. Ah! as Rodin points out, no part shoud surpass the whole ; )

You were almost about two say that there are two types: The ones that record the history and the ones to execute it :-)Still, thanks for the credit! Aren't the ones who make history are also the ones who read it more exclusively than others? ( rather than listening tothe stories told around ) We all know how unpredictable the oral narration could be even fromchildhoodwhen weplayed a game called 'from ear to ear' in my mother tongue!

Please do not think I am underestimating the importance of oral or verbal tradition. On the contrary, they shoud be studied and recorded before they were partially or totally forgotten of alltogether converted, to be lain on a desk for further comperative and through studies! Ah,I don't think I should go into the matter why that should be necessary in a word where the number of knowledgehas beenincreasing in geometrical scale!

Btw, the whole Anthropology may serve into some purpose as with the definition of history: )

The first anthropological studies started as an effort to legitimaze the colonizing European Nations' global dominance motivated by their profit oriented capitalist economies and to make use of the different cultures they met, since every rational effort should have a return!

Since 1960's with the unifying melting pot theory giving way to mosaic theory at which the ethnical diffferences are preserved and their unmatching expectations bring a pluralist philosophy in the social field, whether the Diaspora Studies of Anthropology which gained speed quite appropriate for the decomposing and recomposing meaning of post modernism, will pave the way to reshaping the ‘target countries' in the service of global capitalism remains to be seen!

The interesting thing is, a branch called Cultural Studies formerly a branch of Anthropology and later liberated from it questioning the methods of Anthropology. This (again!) post modern approach which consider every knowledge a product of the culture concludes that the studies of anthropology cannot be objective and argues whether Antropology can be regarded a science or not!

Dear Torgny, I think I know what I am talking about since my field of Doctorate was Anthropology:!:

Anyway, what may or may not be the answer of these questions,I belive that even the direction of gearwheels could be changed if forced!



Cheers : )
bahadir,

I´m sure you know what you are talking about. Congratulations to your degree. (Regrettably there is no emoticon with a man holding a champain glass :-))

We have no different opinions on these matters, I think, except that I perhaps have a bit broader stipulative (stipulatory) definitions in a given moment of a discussion.

Even if there probably are some (many) "wrongs" in these fields, there mustn´t really be a set of "rights" that are forever valid


"There are two concepts involved in these areas of scientific endeavour

"prehistoric" (prehistory, prehistorical etc) as opposed tio "historic" ...

"primitive" as opposed to "civilized"

I find these concepts somewhat troublesome. From what vantage point are they used"


The verification criteria, as well as the later, more honest, falsification criteria, are workable concepts in science theory. Also the paradigm shift theory


To me, as to you, these are important questions. Having a fairly broad academic background myself, I never really have liked that special academical habitat.

I have more trust in so called "ordinary people" and their points of view. I left Academia when the "post modernism" began to flourish.

I lost the interest. Everybody stepped on that "post modern" bandwagon.

Not so with me who felt more at home with with british (and some north american) analytical and language oriented philosophy than with hermeneutics, deconstructivism and other topics.

I couldn´t really stand the "post modern" prophets and their foggy thinking.

Well, anyhow, I cooled a couple of beers, cheers (beercheer with cheerbeer)



Torgny



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