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Old Aug 10, 2002, 11:51 PM   #11
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no they design the controller and a little elf delivers the schematics, specs, and and required documents to the foundry(say toshiba, micron tech) who they have contracted to manufacture the devices where it is then produced packaged, and their label is slapped on.
it's done every day. my wife does this sort of work. small company. custom circuits and packaging design using propriatary tech.
if you design it there is someone to mfgr it. the world is full of oems that build to your spec.
lexars business model is design not manufacture.

by the way where is it said that lexar oems their memory products from toshiba?

"Lexar Media is a leading designer, marketer and licensor of removable flash-based digital media and card reader products used primarily in digital photography and other hand-held consumer devices".

Lexar Media also provides ATA controller solutions for industrial and OEM applications and its innovative intellectual property is licensed by some of the world's most respected companies

Through technology licensing and controller sales agreements with key manufacturing partners, Lexar Media also capitalizes on the growing use of digital media in adjacent markets spanning a range of consumer, industrial and telecommunications applications.

it does not say manufacturer. it does say designer/licencer though.

http://www.robgalbraith.com/media/co...rom_sleep.html

follow this link and note the controller source reference. i think you'll see lexar controller mentioned there a few times.

gee i think they design their own controllers. what do you think?

they are former cirrus logic people. you've heard of them haven't you?

Petro Estakhri, Chief Technology Officer and Executive Vice President, Engineering
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As senior director of Mass Storage Controller Engineering at Cirrus Logic, Petro Estakhri was responsible for the ATA/PCMCIA, Servo Controller ASICs and Flash Storage Systems groups. He also has served as a key design member of Custom Microcomputer Chips at National Semiconductor. A founding member of Lexar Media, he is co-author of several patents related to flash controller and systems architecture. He received his B.S. and M.S. degrees in electrical and computer engineering from the University of California at Davis

think he can design a controller?

quotes taken from lexar website

no, they were smart enough to design it, market it, licence it out, and have someone else build it for them, thus no foundry overhead


[Edited on 8-11-2002 by sjms]
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Old Aug 11, 2002, 1:13 AM   #12
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the flash real speed is that speed attained on the particular device using it. in our case its the digital camera. the reader is of a secondary importance. the reader speed results can be astronomical but will it clear my buffer faster-NO. a md is really no faster in the camera enviornment than the best cf card depending on the camera. what this data shows is actually something a bit negative.

referencing you data for the md on an eos-1d which is fast write camera
to an EOS-1D - 2.345 Mb/s (2345k/sec for clarification)

now you didn't say what type of xfr it was raw or jpg.

here is my data for an eos-1d 1 gig md wrt
raw-2234k/sec
lrg jpg-1926k/sec

now a ridata 512MB for eos-1d cf wrt
raw.tif-2663k/sec
lrg jpg-2505k/sec

just for fun the lexar 24x 512MB same deal
raw.tif-2824K/sec
lrg jpg-2717k/sec

my data seems to skew yours. could you clarify?

reference:
http://www.robgalbraith.com/media/co...non_eos1d.html


[Edited on 8-11-2002 by sjms]
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Old Aug 11, 2002, 7:21 AM   #13
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You'll never get it... Stay with flash !!!

There's plenty of us happy microdrives users around (and we own Flash cards too)... Beside we have no use for the washer, since there's isn't a need for us to swap cards in the field... to loose and to forget!

Quote:
CompactFlash cards is organized into pages and blocks similar to the sector structure of hard disk drives...The card's ability to function as an IDE drive makes it easy to design ...
BTW, ATA controller IPs can be obtained a dime a dozen nowaday, and even your wife can design one. Just look at Altera, Xilinx, or any ASICs design house library for that matter... but may be she should use the Lexar's and pay them the royalty...

... Putting a high-speed device in a HW/SW constrained bottle neck (the fastest camera is still only 1/2 the speed of what a microdrive can do) and blame the device to be slow is beyond me... (Man I've just put this SCSI drive in an x86 and boy it's slower than my floppy). Duh!
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Old Aug 11, 2002, 9:48 AM   #14
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i will. they work the same if not better than the md . they are more durable. and their price is dropping. it is a tech moving foward.

what is there to "get".

1- fact: in our (in camera) real world sitation the md is no faster or slower tha the current crop of flash cf cards. you said it was faster. it's not. it is limited in speed by the camera itself and thats where it really counts.
2- you said lexar oems from toshiba eluding that they were a sheer marketing company just slapping their name on a toshiba designed product. you showed no proof of that. i showed they are a design/engineering house that designs their own product and licences it out.
3- you touted the md as the speeding cure all for all people who take pictures. it isn't. it just another choice in the never ending supply of memory devices. it is fast in a total ata state but we are not in a pure ata state in camera so the speed is wasted. it is an excellent device for large data xfrs pion to point

this last statement refers to the washer. if that is refering to a cf card being inadvertently placed in one that was real lame. at least the cf card has survived whereas a md would now be useless.
having no use for one. i guess you don't clean your clothes.

what was the point of the quote- have you designed one lately? i'll admit i can't. it's not my forte. everything is easy when the parts are available. thats technology

your stuck on the md being a technology wonder. ok it's cool.

i have no doubt that there are a lot of people who read what i write and don't like it or feel i'm wrong. i at least try to bring context to my statements. i am trying to learn and educate as well. i'm neither the smartest or the dumbest. i at least try to back up what i write in the context of the forum and reference it. which is photography and the camera.
i'll qoute you:

"Putting a high-speed device in a HW/SW constrained bottle neck (the fastest camera is still only 1/2 the speed of what a microdrive can do) and blame the device to be slow is beyond me... (Man I've just put this SCSI drive in an x86 and boy it's slower than my floppy). Duh!"
well thats what we deal with the camera and taking pictures. i never blamed the device for lack of speed only durability. i suggest you review the transcripts. your loosing your perspective here.

no, i think you don't get it.

my last statement on the md

1-great idea
2-relatively low durability compared to other equivelent devices
3- outstanding r/w rates in optimum situations
4-in camera currently no real difference than flash cf card.
5- is putting all your eggs in one basket wise. whether it be flash or md? its that one time with those 500 must have shots
and the device craps out. with flash you have a better chance to get the info off yourself. if a md is not spinning you will get nothing without a pricey trip to the hd doctor.
6- do i want a device with a 1 year warrenty or a lifetime warrenty?

i have addressed this enough. we are at deadlock. get an arbitrator. i no longer care. we're both right. we're both wrong. we both have valid points we both got stupid. people will buy what they will buy.

have a nice day



[Edited on 8-11-2002 by sjms]
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Old Aug 12, 2002, 1:38 PM   #15
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That was dumb alright... Considering 99% of the people will not see any differences shooting single jpeg pictures with their camera regardless of card speed. Even if one takes the fastest dSLR in continous raw mode (2.2M vs 2.8M); This translates to a couple of seconds, and may be a fraction of a second when one picture is taken...

Cost (the lowest /Mb) and convenience (no need to swap cards) are the main reasons people opt for the microdrive and also fully aware of the reliability concern (just look at all my postings on this subject). IBM have designed the microdrive to survive a drop, 1000g shock (vs 2000g for flash), and it can also work at high vibration rate (ie. in a car or in a helicopter ride)... In other word it's not your everyday hardisk. Most folks don't religuously back-up their less than stellar PC cousin, so they have already put much more than all their eggs in one basket!

If my memory served me right even the Ridata announced their own version of the microdrive, due anytime now...
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Old Aug 13, 2002, 2:24 AM   #16
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http://www.dpreview.com/news/0106/01...crostorhdd.asp

that will refresh yor memory on riteks hd

here is their homepage:

http://www.ritek.com.tw/ritek_e/index.htm

"1)-and it can also work at high vibration rate (ie. in a car or in a helicopter ride)... In other word it's not your everyday hardisk. 2)-Most folks don't religuously back-up their less than stellar PC cousin, so they have already put much more than all their eggs in one basket"

1-high vibration in a car or heli. that statement requires your answer."That was dumb alright" if you really want to know why i'll tell you. you in my realm there.

2-the fact that i spend parts of my week reassembling other peoples data lost for just that reason allows me the extra duckets to purchase my eyecandy like the epson 2200 printer which i am just waiting to take delivery on. then i attempt to teach them about backing up and redundancy. some actually learn.

with the reference to ritek possibly making a md type . so what. md been out 2 yrs and no other major hd mfgr took up the attempt. everyone is doing cf. it's easier and more profitable. their a few qtrs late on delivering it too.

as i have said this is a waste of both our times and must come to an end here. it is not worth it.




[Edited on 8-13-2002 by sjms]
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Old Aug 13, 2002, 6:10 AM   #17
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... May be they've realized it's much harder to design a highly reliable microdrive, than OEMing a flash... and definitely more profitable to the consumer though!

[Edited on 8-13-2002 by NHL]
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Old Aug 13, 2002, 9:12 AM   #18
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yep- ibm still hasn't figured it out either.

ridata may have found a lack of real demand for it too. i doubt it though. they could turn a profit on a rock. they're shooting for 1.6gb. remember last years the price of a md was up there. i sort of think that when ibm found out that competition was on the way the trap door opened on the price of the md. great for you.

you'll notice they do deal in very high volume items. lots of DVD and plastics based tech components. in taiwan thats the deal- volume.

i'll be taking my new 30 day eval md to maine next week for some abuse. then i'll see if i'll drink the koolaid and we can be friends.

i still loved that car and heli vibration line. i hope you were refering to a car in a serious rally race (Paris-Dakar?) or a heli who's rotors were way out of track.

if you live anywhere near new york and are going to photo plus expo we should meet and i'll buy you a beer or whatever your choice is. you have helped make this forum fun and educational. we would have some great controversial conversations.


[Edited on 8-13-2002 by sjms]
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Old Aug 13, 2002, 9:56 AM   #19
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Would you trust a plastic "mom&pop" outfit for your electronics, or a fully ISO-9001 certified Big Blue factory for your warranty?... Like flash prices haven't drop off like a rock either because of market condition! It actually great for everyone...

May be you should take your camera on a speedboat ride on the open sea, like I did sometime, and see how well the microdrive perform under stress. I'll bet you a laptop hardrive would have conked out under these circumstances... It sure was fun ... just like the other poster that took the helicopter ride with his...

[Edited on 8-13-2002 by NHL]
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Old Aug 13, 2002, 11:20 AM   #20
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i wish i owned this mom and pop operation. you are hilarious with these lines.

"RITEK was the first optical disc manufacturer in Taiwan to receive the ISO9002, ISO9001, and QS9000 certification."

i'd really love to watch you bring back a dead md to big blue after 4-5 years and see the look on their face and then the look on yours when they say "sorry out of warrenty"


what other poster are you refering to with the heli? i'd like to hear that one

flash prices have dropped because there is competition and mass production. lots of product being marketed. ibm likes to hold its margins up like anyone else. but in mass production cost drops and then competition erodes margins.

boat rides- its done in speed boats for system/engine tests recording and realtime analysis in racing enviornment. thes laptops dont break that easy. they just make them for the lifestyle they must live.
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