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Old Jan 27, 2003, 12:22 PM   #1
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Default USB-enabled CF and Firewire reader

Hi... First of all, Thanks all for the brilliant feed back on my 'extreme conditions' question in Tips&Tricks section, I really appreciate it.
Well, here my question is, have anybody tried reading/writing on a USB-enabled CF e.g. Lexar 24x/12x series, using a Firewire card reader/writer, is the built-in USB is only for Jumpshot connectivity or also for reading writing to the card because in later case it will create bottle-neck for Firewire devices (IEEE 1394 supports upto 400Mbps which is way greater than USB).
???

TiA.
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Old Jan 27, 2003, 3:33 PM   #2
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I think using a FireWire reader or USB reader makes no difference to the media as long as the device can read the card.I have not heard of anyone who makes FireWire readers.Usually only high end cameras come with a fast FireWire connection or video cameras.FireWire just got bumped to 800Mbps and eventually expects to go to 3200Mbps but I think it will take fibre optic cable to get to the high end.Apples new Power Book line now has 800Mbps built in.

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Old Jan 28, 2003, 4:12 AM   #3
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Hi... the question is about the FireWire card reader i.e. a reader that plugs into 1394 port and can read/write upto 400Mbps, it doesn't matter how camera uses or used the CF. The bottle-neck question was about the USB-enabled cards which only few companies e.g Lexar, are making.

FYI. Lexar and Unity Digital (also reviewed on steve digicams) are FireWire readers.
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Old Jan 28, 2003, 7:01 AM   #4
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Quote:
USB-enabled cards which only few companies e.g Lexar, are making.
Is this more like an oxymoron term coined up by some marketing machine gurus?

If one uses this card in a camera then use a firewire reader or a PCMCIA card adapter for transfer then where the 'USB-enabled' in all this?
I'm sure the particular card is fast probably because its internal buffer/cache is large or that the CF internal controller is fast, but then that's also true for all other "high speed" cards. The microdrive is surely non-USB-enabled but it also happened to be the fastest of any flash!
http://www.stevesforums.com/phpBB2/v...805&highlight=

To answer your question, a Firewire reader (with any flash/microdrive) is always faster than a USB reader even though its max speed is rated slighly slower than USB2.0. A USB 2.0 is at best only 2 to about 15 times faster than the original USB, and nowhere near 40 like advertised (may be hub to hub that's all). BTW 1394b doesn't need fibre optic cable at most of its rated short distances... It only requires it for long haul 8)

Some overzealous 'hot-shot' is probably dreaming up the idea of creating the term "firewire-enabled" for their flash now that this interface is widely available and is present in all the new PCs unlike just MAC like earlier when the term is coined! :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Old Jan 28, 2003, 7:38 AM   #5
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Well.... but i'm still waiting for the answer....
+ :idea: The term USB-enabled means that the CF have an **internal USB interface** so you dont need an external one and the 'JumpShot' cable that comes with the card doesn't need USB.
The Lexar 24x series cards are relatively very fast, (well not against microdrives) but microdrives are very sensitive to use + you cant use them anywhere e.g. I needed a bigger storage cause i am going to Peru for 3 weeks! so microdive wont work cuz it wont work above 10,000 ft. + it eats battery.


fyi. http://www.steves-digicams.com/high-...y_storage.html
see the FASTEST CF.
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Old Jan 28, 2003, 11:35 AM   #6
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Quote:
The term USB-enabled means that the CF have an **internal USB interface** so you dont need an external one and the 'JumpShot' cable that comes with the card doesn't need USB.
They must be a very creative bunch!
http://www.lexarmedia.com/digfilm/index_cf.html

An ATA interface is parallel (so is CF+ which is based on it) with TTL signaling. A USB is serial interface with differential data lines requiring a physical interface (PHY) along with the associated circuit protection, ie your 'JumpShot' cable. Is that where you draw the line?

Back to your original question then, the other poster is correct:
Quote:
a FireWire reader or USB reader makes no difference to the media as long as the device can read the card
and again a Firewire reader is faster regardless of **internal USB interface** or not. It makes no difference as long as its ATA!

If the 'JumpShot' cable actually translated the USB interface from the card to Firewire then I would expect it to be slowed down by the USB protocol eventhough Firewire is also serial, with again different signaling... Have you tried the lexar card with another brand of Firewire reader?

BTW what do you plan on using for your bigger storage? A databank or similar devices rely on laptop hardisk and are rated sometime less than the microdrive in term of shock and vibration and theses devices also need their own battery, and they are not frugal in this department either...
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Old Jan 28, 2003, 12:25 PM   #7
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Yep. Now i can see we are getting somewhere....

Quote:
An ATA interface is ......... Is that where you draw the line?
Yeah, I think.. assuming the internal usb connectivty is only for jumpshot cable.

Quote:
Have you tried the lexar card with another brand of Firewire reader?
Nopes, didn't tried any firewire reader but Thats the root of my question 'cuz i got the usb-enabled lexar CF+ (512MB 24x), now if the internal usb is working multi-directional i.e. from/toward host + from/toward reader then its no use to get a firewire reader with these kinda cards 'cuz the card itself will create a bottle neck of higher usb limit.[/quote][/code]
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Old Jan 28, 2003, 1:42 PM   #8
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I think you've already answered your own question:
Quote:
The bottle-neck question was about the USB-enabled cards which only few companies e.g Lexar, are making.
I guess it's USB 1.x when the card was designed and your question is valid if the assumption is the jumpshot cable uses this feature... which I doubt (to slowdown? Who would have bought such a thing?... a marketing suicide?)

On the other hand if you use another card reader, that is guaranteed not to have the so-called "USB-enabled", ie 98% of the market then the regular CF's ATA port has to be used! and so is your camera. Your G3 as well as all other CF devices do not know what a "USB-enabled" card is and always default to the CF mode which is ATA... So yes a Firewire reader through the ATA port of the Lexar card will be faster (and the "USB-enabled" feature is for nothing) :?

PS... The ATA part is already known to be fast from various test results :lol:
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Old Jan 29, 2003, 1:20 AM   #9
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That USB enabled part coined by Lexar's marketing is worthless junk unless you're using their jumpshot cable, which originally only worked with Lexar cards. As far as using the Lexar CF (in my case a 12x rated one) with their firewire card reader, I was able to achieve about 2MB/s average write speed for a single large file (a 109MB and a 46.5MB) and around 1.35MB/s for many files (16 TIFF images worth 159MB, and 8 MPG files worth 101MB). Opening some of those those files in Photoshop I obtained an average of 10MB/s (one 46.5MB TIFF, and 16 TIFF images totaling 159MB). I don't know how the images opened so fast in Photoshop, if the card is rated at 1.8MB/s sustained and 16MB/s in a short burst. Perhaps Photoshop needs to read only part of the file in order to work with it? I never owned a USB CF reader, so I can't make my own comparisons... and I junked my jumpshot cable since it NEVER worked on ANY computer I owned, regardless of Windows (98SE, 2K, XP) or Mac OS (9.x, 10.x.x), using the newest or original drivers. The OS always recognized the hardware but when connecting a CF, no computer I've tried it on could see a removable drive. Absolute junk! :lol: Oh, and did I mention you'll never realize 50MB/s over firewire (IEEE-1394, not the new 1394b) due to other hardware considerations? That goes for USB 2 as well. Don't be fooled when companies say their firewire readers have a transfer rate of 100, 200 or 400Mbps. Just be happy those readers read/write faster than USB 1
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