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Old Jun 17, 2009, 6:24 AM   #11
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I often would use the waist level viwfinder on my film camera so I can see the advantage of an articulate LCD with liveview

The nikon D5000 has subjrct trackimg autofocus in liveview. I wonder how well that works.
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Old Jun 17, 2009, 6:47 AM   #12
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I use live preview myself, in a cheap Kodak Z712 superzoom, but that's in an eye-level ElectronicViewFinder, with histogram displayed if I want it. I set the exposure by eye before I push the button, and then check the result for blown highlights and tonal range immediately & automatically with a 'quickview' of a thumbnail of the image I've just taken.

This is the second biggest breakthrough in my 49 years of continuous photography (starting age 11). The first was digital photography that could, much of the time, match my OM-10 film SLR at a price I could afford, and that happened when I got my Olympus C3020Z in 2002.

However, as far I can see in these forums, this opinion is in a minority of one. Am I really all alone in this discovery?

I used to be employed in a research centre as a sort of inventor, but in this camera Kodak made for me something much better than anything I could have thought of.

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Old Jun 17, 2009, 7:00 AM   #13
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Wanting to use fast primes on the Nikon could be expensive if we are talking the 50mm as the Nikon f1.8 won't AF so you need to go with the Sigma which puts the price up.

Sony has a well priced 50mm f1.8 so that's a possibility. I'm not aware of anything in the 4/3 line up but someone else can chip in if that is not correct.

Is it viable to use the SX10 in combination with a dSLR as you might get a better set up if doing so. I wouldn't expect to use a fast prime for example for the sort of shots you mention so it might be a better use of your money. I personally use a Canon SX1 for long zoom easily portable, Panasonic TZ5 for pocket ability and then a range of dSLRs for higher quality and paid shooting.
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Old Jun 17, 2009, 7:35 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by tjsnaps View Post
I often would use the waist level viwfinder on my film camera so I can see the advantage of an articulate LCD with liveview

The Nikon D5000 has subjrct trackimg autofocus in liveview. I wonder how well that works.
One review I saw timing it indicated that the fastest time they measured locking focus with the D5000 using Live view was 2.3 seconds. IOW, I'd assume you'd have typical focus times close to several seconds. Given AF times that slow, I wouldn't expect the tracking to work very well.

Another issue with most dSLR models using Live View is LCD blackout using continuous drive mode, making it virtually impossible to track action while shooting. IOW, the main imaging sensor can't refresh itself fast enough between frames to provide the Live View.

This can also be an issue with some non-dSLR camera models that use an EVF or LCD versus an optical viewfinder (LCD blackout issues and/or refresh delay) making it difficult to follow a moving subject while shooting.

But, most dSLR models tend to do even worse. Live View with most dSLR models is very poor compared to what you find in most point and shoot models. Also keep in mind that you'll have a shallower depth of field for a given aperture and subject framing with a dSLR model, making focus accuracy more critical (adding to the time the camera needs to achieve acceptable focus accuracy using a contrast detection based focus technique with Live View).

Again, I'd suggest trying Live View for any models you consider. With most dSLR models, Live View is better suited for stationary subjects.
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Old Jun 17, 2009, 8:50 AM   #15
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Wanting to use fast primes on the Nikon could be expensive if we are talking the 50mm as the Nikon f1.8 won't AF so you need to go with the Sigma which puts the price up.
I was thinking of the new (but hard to find) Nikkor 35mm f/1.8 AF-S. Here in France its 230.

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Sony has a well priced 50mm f1.8 so that's a possibility. I'm not aware of anything in the 4/3 line up but someone else can chip in if that is not correct.

Is it viable to use the SX10 in combination with a dSLR as you might get a better set up if doing so. I wouldn't expect to use a fast prime for example for the sort of shots you mention so it might be a better use of your money. I personally use a Canon SX1 for long zoom easily portable, Panasonic TZ5 for pocket ability and then a range of dSLRs for higher quality and paid shooting.
I think that I'll keep the SX10. I have a bag that can hold it, a D40 and other stuff, so carrying it around shouldn't be too much of an issue. Plus I'll probably hand it over to my daughter to learn on.

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One review I saw timing it indicated that the fastest time they measured locking focus with the D5000 using Live view was 2.3 seconds. IOW, I'd assume you'd have typical focus times close to several seconds. Given AF times that slow, I wouldn't expect the tracking to work very well.

Another issue with most dSLR models using Live View is LCD blackout using continuous drive mode, making it virtually impossible to track action while shooting. IOW, the main imaging sensor can't refresh itself fast enough between frames to provide the Live View.

This can also be an issue with some non-dSLR camera models that use an EVF or LCD versus an optical viewfinder (LCD blackout issues and/or refresh delay) making it difficult to follow a moving subject while shooting.

But, most dSLR models tend to do even worse. Live View with most dSLR models is very poor compared to what you find in most point and shoot models. Also keep in mind that you'll have a shallower depth of field for a given aperture and subject framing with a dSLR model, making focus accuracy more critical (adding to the time the camera needs to achieve acceptable focus accuracy using a contrast detection based focus technique with Live View).

Again, I'd suggest trying Live View for any models you consider. With most dSLR models, Live View is better suited for stationary subjects.
Noted. Thanks. This stuff gets more and more complicated the more that I look into it !!!
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Old Jun 17, 2009, 10:22 AM   #16
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One review I saw timing it indicated that the fastest time they measured locking focus with the D5000 using Live view was 2.3 seconds.
To put that into perspective, the same reviewer timed Autofocus with the Sony A350 at 0.181 seconds using Live View in the same lighting (the Sony's Autofocus was over 12 times as fast as the Nikon D5000 AF when using Live View).

Again, if you really want to use Live View often, I'd try them out in a store. The newer "Micro 4/3" Lumix GH1 model from Panasonic is going to be the next best choice if you really want Live View, with AF times averaging around 0.37 seconds.

The Sony models with live view (A300, A350, A330, A380) are going to be roughly twice as fast as the Panasonic. But, the new Panasonic GH1 is still *much* better than most other models with larger sensors (compared to the sensors in most point and shoot models) at locking focus using Live View.

Just keep in mind that you've got a smaller sensor with the 4/3 and Micro 4/3 models compared to most other dSLR models (other entry level models use a larger APS-C size sensor), which means you'll have more depth of field for a given aperture and subject framing with the Panasonic (making it more difficult to isolate a larger subject from distracting backgrounds). Because no optical viewfinder is available, you'll also have a bit of display lag trying to track moving subjects. Lens choices that focus well with this new Micro 4/3 model are a bit limited, too.

There are going to be pros and cons to any of them.
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Old Jun 17, 2009, 12:42 PM   #17
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To put that into perspective, the same reviewer timed Autofocus with the Sony A350 at 0.181 seconds using Live View in the same lighting (the Sony's Autofocus was over 12 times as fast as the Nikon D5000 AF when using Live View).

Again, if you really want to use Live View often, I'd try them out in a store. The newer "Micro 4/3" Lumix GH1 model from Panasonic is going to be the next best choice if you really want Live View, with AF times averaging around 0.37 seconds.

The Sony models with live view (A300, A350, A330, A380) are going to be roughly twice as fast as the Panasonic. But, the new Panasonic GH1 is still *much* better than most other models with larger sensors (compared to the sensors in most point and shoot models) at locking focus using Live View.
Such a pity that the new Sony screens aren't movable in other planes. It's probably irrational but I have a thing against Sony equipment. I always seem to have probs with Sony stuff plus my Mac (yes I'm an Apple user).

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Just keep in mind that you've got a smaller sensor with the 4/3 and Micro 4/3 models compared to most other dSLR models (other entry level models use a larger APS-C size sensor), which means you'll have more depth of field for a given aperture and subject framing with the Panasonic (making it more difficult to isolate a larger subject from distracting backgrounds). Because no optical viewfinder is available, you'll also have a bit of display lag trying to track moving subjects. Lens choices that focus well with this new Micro 4/3 model are a bit limited, too.

There are going to be pros and cons to any of them.
Plus (so it seems to me) we get shafted in Europe for 4/3 equipment, even more so than on Nikon or Canon gear.

Last edited by mattyb; Jun 17, 2009 at 12:46 PM.
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Old Jun 18, 2009, 7:01 AM   #18
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...hence the need for a camera that accepts other lenses and one that can do RAW. My (limited) understanding was that only SLRs fit the bill.
Matt
You're wrong. There are two non-SLRs that provide fit the bill. The Panasonic G-1 and GH-1 have interchangable lenses and shoot RAW inaddition to have a positionable live view screen.

The only advantage to an SLR is that, within the limits of today's technology, you can get faster autofocusing by reverting to the optical reflex finder instead of using the live view. When in the live view mode, the current speed leaders are the Panasonic G-1 and GH-1.
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Old Jun 18, 2009, 7:04 AM   #19
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You're wrong. There are two non-SLRs that provide fit the bill. The Panasonic G-1 and GH-1 have interchangable lenses and shoot RAW inaddition to have a positionable live view screen.

The only advantage to an SLR is that, within the limits of today's technology, you can get faster autofocusing by reverting to the optical reflex finder instead of using the live view. When in the live view mode, the current speed leaders are the Panasonic G-1 and GH-1.
Based on what JimC said further up the thread this is not correct and the Sony's are fastest.

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Originally Posted by JimC View Post
To put that into perspective, the same reviewer timed Autofocus with the Sony A350 at 0.181 seconds using Live View in the same lighting (the Sony's Autofocus was over 12 times as fast as the Nikon D5000 AF when using Live View).

Again, if you really want to use Live View often, I'd try them out in a store. The newer "Micro 4/3" Lumix GH1 model from Panasonic is going to be the next best choice if you really want Live View, with AF times averaging around 0.37 seconds.

The Sony models with live view (A300, A350, A330, A380) are going to be roughly twice as fast as the Panasonic. But, the new Panasonic GH1 is still *much* better than most other models with larger sensors (compared to the sensors in most point and shoot models) at locking focus using Live View.

Just keep in mind that you've got a smaller sensor with the 4/3 and Micro 4/3 models compared to most other dSLR models (other entry level models use a larger APS-C size sensor), which means you'll have more depth of field for a given aperture and subject framing with the Panasonic (making it more difficult to isolate a larger subject from distracting backgrounds). Because no optical viewfinder is available, you'll also have a bit of display lag trying to track moving subjects. Lens choices that focus well with this new Micro 4/3 model are a bit limited, too.

There are going to be pros and cons to any of them.
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Old Jun 18, 2009, 7:29 AM   #20
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You'll find some precise AF timings for them at Dave Etchells' site (imaging-resource.com).

Here's the Panasonic DMC-G1:
http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/DMCG1/DMCG1A6.HTM

Here's the Sony A350 (note the separate timing for Live View):
http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/AA350/AA350A6.HTM

Because of their design, the Sony models can use their dedicated 9 point AF sensor assembly while in live view mode (allowing faster phase detect autofocus compared to other models that rely on contrast detect autofocus with a camera's main imaging sensor).
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