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Old Nov 18, 2003, 12:22 PM   #11
ir
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OK, I'll add a little more about Export. You don't have to use the export function for emailing or moving/copying to another folder. You don't even have to have Photoshop, Zoombrowser or any other such program open (or even installed on your computer).

I have emailed, edited, manipulated, burned to CD, had prints made, resized, moved and copied to other folders hundreds of times without ever touching an Export command. These are functions of your computer operating system (Windows, or is it a Mac?), your email program, and your CD burning software (yes, manipulation was done in PS).

To move or copy files to a new folder, just go into My Computer (in Windows), and copy or moves the files. To email, just go into your email program, open a new message and Insert or Attach the files you want (the originals will stay on your computer, you are only sending a copy).

You get pictures called "untitled" because when you select Save As or, apparently, Export you have to supply a file name, and if you don't some programs just use the default "untitled". And you can't save a file with the same name to the same folder, so if you try to do it again, you will be asked if you want to overwrite the first file you called "untilted.jpg".

If I've insulted your intelligence, Gwen, I sincerely apologize. I'm a software developer, and from reading your posts it sounds like there are some fundamental things about a computer you should understand to make your life a whole lot easier. I'm not sure I've succeeded in explaining it, and maybe you knew all this. But heck, work was boring so I typed this up...

ir
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Old Nov 18, 2003, 9:19 PM   #12
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ir

While I generally agree with everything you said, I have to point out that technically it isn't 100% correct (I'm a software engineer, so I'm picky about details... like I bet you are.)

While I agree that the pictures are "on your hard disk just like any other files" how they get there matters. The obvious example is the one that I gave above, downloading by using zoombrowser will automatically rotate portrate pictures so they have the proper orientation when viewed.

So while you say "I can't imagine that the software used to download image files affects the quality of the image (if so, don't use it)." we have a documented feature that changes the picture (auto rotation) so why can't they do something else? I think it's wrong to do it, but it could.

The only thing that fits the facts (as I see them) as presented by Gwen is that the software used to copy the software off the CF card is also altering the picture (say by increasing contrast or altering brightness to bring out details in the dark portions.) The other possability is that Gwen is missing something in her description, or I'm misunderstanding her description.

I do agree with your description of the choice of 'untitled". That fits what I believe it's doing.

And while I agree that you can do all those things without using any "export function", I would still recommend that you edit your pictures in something and save it to a smaller jpg that you mail (your not saying "don't do this", I'm just reacting to your description.)

Sure, if you have a camera which produces small images, then that is probably ok. But even emailing 1MB pictures is usually considered rude. I would edit in something (for me, it's PhotoShop Elements 2) and save to a much more compressed jpg and mail the smaller file (using whatever email method you want). One convient way to save to a smaller jpg is the "save for web", which is really just saving to a jpg, but with a bit more controls (and an easier interface.)

Eric
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Old Nov 19, 2003, 11:55 AM   #13
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I agree, Eric, but I didn't want to bring too many variables into the discussion. I guess I don't think of rotation as something that affects the visual quality of a picture. It also occurs to me that it is something that's done in-camera or later on a computer. If the download software is doing it, the camera must have marked it for rotation, which I would consider an in-camera thing (and it would likely be viewed rotated on the camera LCD).

As for reducing the size of a pic before emailing it, I actually had a line in there about that and deleted it. I was going to suggest that you can really clog up an inbox, especially if there are size limits in place, with a small number of full size pics. I deleted it because Gwen mentioned sending pics to a printer and I just didn't want to confuse things with that whole issue. Although I did kinda think that most photo finishing sites would get files via some form of upload, not email. However, even when I re-size pics for any reason I don't use the Export function. I just resize 'em and use Save As, and add something to the file name so that I can pick it out as resized and preserve the original. I do the same for crops.

Anyway, I thought I'd cover off the basic issues, and I hope we've worked out some of the details. I'd kind of like to hear from Gwen to see if we've been helpful, or just a confusing bunch of think-we-know-it-alls, LOL.

ir
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Old Nov 19, 2003, 12:01 PM   #14
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Oh, one more thing about Photoshop. You can run a utility that comes with it (and installs with it, but is run seperately) to calibrate your monitor. It creates a new configuration file for the monitor (actually, I can't remember how they refer to those files, but it stores settings for gamma and such). There may be a possibility that PS is using a different file for the monitor than other programs. To be honest, I'm not sure if this is even possible (that one app can apply certain monitor settings, but swithing to another app will revert to default settings). But I know that I created a file with the PS calibration program and I use it - I think I have it set up to always be used, though.

Anyway, just another thought.

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Old Nov 19, 2003, 2:50 PM   #15
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IR

You are right, the camera marks it and the downloading softare rotates it (and when previewing in the camera, the camera rotates it in memory. It doesn't write it rotated that I know of.) Lossless rotation of jpgs has been around for awhile so it shouldn't cause any problems. But it is technically a change to the file, so saying that downloading shouldn't change isn't actually correct. The obvious fear here is that the process of downloading could alter the picuture. We'd hope not (I would consider that a bug) but it could be.

As for monitor calibration. If she were using the Mac, this would be less likely because the Mac supports color profiles in the OS, Window's doesn't (one of the reasons why some graphic artists use the Mac.) So if she had a profile for PS (which does support them) then that could cause the problem too.

It does take effort to do (I don't know how, I've only read a bit about it) so I don't think it would happen by mistake. But still, it could alter the view of the same picture in two different programs.

As a slight digression I learned last night that the save for web seems to be different than the save as -> jpg. IT seems to make it smaller without visible loss of quality. No idea how it does it, but I believe the site I read it on.

Gwen

There is an obvious test that I should have thought of. If you download with zoombrowser to your hard disk and then view the picture with both PS and zoom, do they look the same (zoomed in 100%, but nothing else)? I should try this myself. Then we could point to the viewing being the problem and now the downloading.

Eric
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Old Nov 20, 2003, 1:05 PM   #16
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Hey, guys,

I've been away for a bit as I had/have sick kids at home. I'm going to try and cover all your replies in this one post and keep it short.


>>My experience comes from a Canon 10D. Maybe this doesn't apply to your camera. The 10D marks the pictures taken in portrate mode, and when zoombrowser downloads them it detects the flag and it flips them rightside up, all automatically. The only times I've had to do this by hand is when I used my laptop, and copied the pictures over with explorer (i.e. didn't use zoombrowser to copy the files.) <<

***I really haven't taken too many photos in portrait mode, to be honest. So maybe Zoombrowser would do that for me. Maybe I took a few in that mode and it did flip them and I didn't even notice. I'm going to try and keep the rest of my comments to the topic of the difference between zoom and PS, just so this doesn't get bogged down.


>>Ok, good. You are comparing the same files. Just making sure. You'd be surprised at some of the things people will do. <<

***I don't know much, but I do know a tiny bit. <g> And I am comparing the same photos, the same size, everything as much as the same as I can make it. And I believe I did mention that I noticed that the increased detail was there on the camera when you view the photos thru the lcd. My biggest concern right now is why those 'details' aren't there on the printed photo. Maybe if I had a printer and could play around more, I could get them. But for now I'm trying to figure out how to get them to print out thru Shutterfly's print.

>>I just had an idea. A Color space missmatch would do it, but I doubt you'd be changing that setting (and I don't believe you can do it by accident... it takes effort.) But it would explain your problem. If PS was in Adobe RGB, but you gave it an sRGB file that would change the brightness. If zoombrowser detected the color space setting and PS used whatever it was set to.... It's worth checking (PS Elements doesn't have color spaces, so I can't help you on how you check the setting.) <<

***I haven't the slightest idea what you're talking about there. So that's probably not it. I'm completely new at this and didn't do a single thing to the photos besides rotate them and crop them.


>>You can "export to web" without having a web page. Really all it does is automate the process of saving a jpg. It puts up a nice preview view of the picture and lets you adjust the jpg compress (and it shows you how large the picture will be.) I find it's very easy to convert a picture something fit for the web that way. <<

***I didn't realize that. I'll have to play around with that. I realize there's more than one way to get the photos from zoom or ps to another spot. So far I have mostly done the 'export' feature and once I did the 'copy' feature, mostly by mistake. Perhaps I'm using the export feature wrong somehow. I'll have to play with that more.


>>Also, "export from PS" is an odd statement (to me.) If you choose "save as" under file, you can specify the format of the file and pick where you want to save it. What do you mean by "export from PS"?<<

***I don't really know. It's just there under the 'file' section and lets me move the photos elsewhere. It's what I tried first (seemed logical), it worked (better the first time than subsequent times), and so I stuck with it in an effort to get some photos back asap.



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>>I noticed that when downloading photos from my D30 that pics in ZoomBrowser were significantly sharper and contrasty than in PS7 <<

***Hmmmm, I had the opposite. Interesting. Not sure about sharper, but there was that detail thing.

>>Even at 100% in ZoomBrowser the edges were crisp, in PS7 then were really blurred... <<

***I'm using PS 5 which is what came with the camera. When I finally get a camera of my own, I'll probably guy the Elements version and also that other package that it often comes bundled with. The only reason for doing that is that it seems to be what a lot of people on these forums use and I want to be able to discuss this stuff with them and if I'm using the same thing, it should be easier. Plus, I'm hoping they come with BOOKS.

>>I noticed that Windows Pic and Fax Viewers makes then look different too....<<

***The one thing I haven't tried is to do the same thing to the same photos using the browser/viewer/whatever-you-call-it that is already part of my computer system (Windows XP Pro). I was thinking to try that next.

***I'm going to post this half now, because whenever I work on really long emails, my computer freezes and I lose it. Murphy's Law. So I'll do the second half after I take my dog outside.

Gwen


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Old Nov 20, 2003, 1:41 PM   #17
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***Brrrrr, it's cold out there! Okay, second half.


>>I think there might be an understanding gap here. You seem to think there's something different about downloading from your camera to Zoombrowser or Photoshop. I think the download process comes to the same thing - the same files are copied from the camera card to your hard drive. There's no difference in the files. <<

***I would agree with that, unless zoom or PS does something to them on the way. I never really thought there was anything different. I thought I was using a different 'program' to do the same thing. And I never really thought zoom or PS was 'doing' anything to them either. But I have no idea why they would look diffrent.

>>They are not "in" PS or Zoombrowser. They are on your hard drive just like any other files. You can open them in Zoombrowser or PS (or any of a bunch of other programs, including the PhotoImpression software I got with my A70). Those applications open a file so you can look at it or manipulate it, and some provide the necessary drivers (software programs that allow communication between the camera and computer) to download the pictures from the camera. <<

***Well, they're not really on my hard drive until I put them there, via zoom or PS. They're in the camera and then they zip thru that little cord connecting my camera to my computer.

>>I can't imagine that the software used to download image files affects the quality of the image (if so, don't use it). I download all my pics from my A70 using Zombrowser, and I view them with Zoombrowser (I like the slideshow and thumbnails), but I edit mostly in Photoshop. <<

***I don't have enough experience to know which I'll do. I don't think I've even figured out how to use PS with photos I've initially used zoom to put on the computer. At this point, I'm not going to try and figure that out. I have to narrow the learning process and just figure out a few things at a time.

>>As for exporting, you don't have to do anything like that to open them in another program like PS, just open the original file. Exporting allows you to change to another file format and a few other options that I would use Photoshop for anyway. And you end up renaming them because you can't have two files in the same folder with the same name, and the program won't overwrite the original unless you say it's OK (NEVER do this, always keep the original file if you're in this situation -- create another folder for manipulated files, or burn the originals to a CD so you can always go back to it if you have to). <<

***I am keeping my orig photos. The ones I play with are copies. As for the renaming, I am stuck on that, and will eventually post a query if I can't figure it out on my own. One, the photos are numbered as they are shot and imo, that should suffice as a 'name' as they're all different. Second, the first time I tried it, I renamed all the photos with word names and everything worked fine. From then on, when I tried the same thing with different photos, it doesn't work. I still get untitled messages even tho they have names. Obviously I'm doing *something* different; I just haven't figure out what that is yet.

>>As for how they look in each program, I think some other posts addressed this -- different settings, different size, stuff like that. Unless the difference is very big, then I'd have to have a look for myself to figure it out. <<

***I think the difference is pretty big. One version is all black except for the lights and the other version you can see the bushes and detail of the yard. These are before I have done anything to the photos other than put them to zoom or PS via the cord from the camera.


>>I hope this helps. It kind of sounds like you just need to understand computers a little better first (we're all trying to get a handle on Photoshop). <<

***I think I understand computers a heck of a lot better than I understand zoom and PS. I can tell you that except for people who work in the computer industry, I understand computers better than anyone I know. (Scary, isn't it?)



>>OK, I'll add a little more about Export. You don't have to use the export function for emailing or moving/copying to another folder. You don't even have to have Photoshop, Zoombrowser or any other such program open (or even installed on your computer). <<

***I don't really use it for emailing. I've only emailed photos to a few people who wanted to see our Halloween display and I sent them via the email thingie in zoom. It allowed me to resize the photo so it went thru quickly and came thru quickly on the other end. I'm sure there are other ways to do it, but I haven't played with them yet. One thing at a time!!! I also sent a couple emails using Outlook Express and getting the photos as attachments. But then I couldn't play with the resolution and compession to get the photos to a decent size for sending, so it wasn't as much fun.

>>have emailed, edited, manipulated, burned to CD, had prints made, resized, moved and copied to other folders hundreds of times without ever touching an Export command. These are functions of your computer operating system (Windows, or is it a Mac?), your email program, and your CD burning software (yes, manipulation was done in PS). <<

***I know I can do all that. What I wanted to do was send the photos to Shutterfly and I can't do that via email. I haven't discovered yet if there is more than one way to get them there. I'm sure there is.


>>u get pictures called "untitled" because when you select Save As or, apparently, Export you have to supply a file name, and if you don't some programs just use the default "untitled". And you can't save a file with the same name to the same folder, so if you try to do it again, you will be asked if you want to overwrite the first file you called "untilted.jpg". <<

***See above. I did rename them, even tho they already had different numbers attached to them as names.

>> I've insulted your intelligence, Gwen, I sincerely apologize. I'm a software developer, and from reading your posts it sounds like there are some fundamental things about a computer you should understand to make your life a whole lot easier. I'm not sure I've succeeded in explaining it, and maybe you knew all this. But heck, work was boring so I typed this up... <<

***Glad I could make your day a littler more interesting. <g>




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>>ile I generally agree with everything you said, I have to point out that technically it isn't 100% correct (I'm a software engineer, so I'm picky about details... like I bet you are.) <<

***Ah-ha! I knew it!

>>While I agree that the pictures are "on your hard disk just like any other files" how they get there matters. The obvious example is the one that I gave above, downloading by using zoombrowser will automatically rotate portrate pictures so they have the proper orientation when viewed.
So while you say "I can't imagine that the software used to download image files affects the quality of the image (if so, don't use it)." we have a documented feature that changes the picture (auto rotation) so why can't they do something else? I think it's wrong to do it, but it could.
The only thing that fits the facts (as I see them) as presented by Gwen is that the software used to copy the software off the CF card is also altering the picture (say by increasing contrast or altering brightness to bring out details in the dark portions.) The other possability is that Gwen is missing something in her description, or I'm misunderstanding her description. <<

***Yeah, what he said.

>>And while I agree that you can do all those things without using any "export function", I would still recommend that you edit your pictures in something and save it to a smaller jpg that you mail (your not saying "don't do this", I'm just reacting to your description.)
Sure, if you have a camera which produces small images, then that is probably ok. But even emailing 1MB pictures is usually considered rude. I would edit in something (for me, it's PhotoShop Elements 2) and save to a much more compressed jpg and mail the smaller file (using whatever email method you want). One convient way to save to a smaller jpg is the "save for web", which is really just saving to a jpg, but with a bit more controls (and an easier interface.) <<

***Would I want to do all that for a photo I'm going to print? Would saving to a smaller jpg do anything to the detail or quality of the photo when it comes to printing? I think we have to stick with printing here and not emailing. I could care less if the bushes show up when I'm emailing a photo. For printing, I want everything there that was there originally.

***I was actually wondering about this as it took me *forever* to 'upload' the photos to Shutterfly since I didn't make them all smaller. I didn't know if doing so would diminish the quality. And as I said, I needed to get the photos printed and back to me asap. What I will probably do sometime soon is send Shutterfly the same photo a couple different ways and get them all printed and then see if there's a difference.


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>>As for reducing the size of a pic before emailing it, I actually had a line in there about that and deleted it. I was going to suggest that you can really clog up an inbox, especially if there are size limits in place, with a small number of full size pics. I deleted it because Gwen mentioned sending pics to a printer and I just didn't want to confuse things with that whole issue. Although I did kinda think that most photo finishing sites would get files via some form of upload, not email. However, even when I re-size pics for any reason I don't use the Export function. I just resize 'em and use Save As, and add something to the file name so that I can pick it out as resized and preserve the original. I do the same for crops. <<

***Right, the real issue here is printing, not emailing. As I've had and continue to have my email clogged up by people who don't care enough to resize their photos, I'm very aware of not doing that to others.

>>Anyway, I thought I'd cover off the basic issues, and I hope we've worked out some of the details. I'd kind of like to hear from Gwen to see if we've been helpful, or just a confusing bunch of think-we-know-it-alls, LOL. <<

***I can't say as you've been helpful re my orig problem with the detail, but you certainly have cleared up many other areas I've been wondering about! What I might try to do is find a website I can post the photos so you can see what I mean. That's provided I can reproduce the 'problem' or get the 'problem' to show up when the photos are posted on a website versus sitting on my own computer.


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>>Oh, one more thing about Photoshop. You can run a utility that comes with it (and installs with it, but is run seperately) to calibrate your monitor. It creates a new configuration file for the monitor (actually, I can't remember how they refer to those files, but it stores settings for gamma and such). There may be a possibility that PS is using a different file for the monitor than other programs. To be honest, I'm not sure if this is even possible (that one app can apply certain monitor settings, but swithing to another app will revert to default settings). But I know that I created a file with the PS calibration program and I use it - I think I have it set up to always be used, though. <<

***Uh-oh, lost me again. Besides, my monitor is *so* old that I'm not sure it could be calibrated. <g> (Computer is almost brand new but we didn't upgrade the monitor as I wanted to put the money into the computer. Also not sure that PS 5 comes with that utility.



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>>There is an obvious test that I should have thought of. If you download with zoombrowser to your hard disk and then view the picture with both PS and zoom, do they look the same (zoomed in 100%, but nothing else)? I should try this myself. Then we could point to the viewing being the problem and now the downloading. <<

***I'll try and figure out how to do this. I can't remember if I tried this already or not. If I haven't, then I'm not sure how to do it, but it should be easy enough to figure out. I'll let you know.

***Btw, I have never really made a distinction in my mind regarding downloading versus viewing. I just wondered why it was different in different programs and how I could get the photos to print out the 'better' way.

***Thanks for all the advice. Now I'll go see if I can figure out how to 'show' the photos and the difference to you.

Gwen
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Old Nov 20, 2003, 2:16 PM   #18
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Okay, so I 'viewed' the photos that were in Zoombrowser using Photoshop 5. The detail was there in the viewing on PS, again, but not when viewing in Zoom. Then, from PS, I did a save a copy thing to a folder on my computer that I keep the Halloween pics in. I did the save using the maximum quality thing. The orig saves from Zoom were already in there. I compared the orig zoom ones to the ones I just saved using PS. The detail was not there. Thus far, I can only get that kind of detail when viewing in PS.

I don't know of any other way at this point to 'view' the photos differently. It must be that the details are there in the photos on the computer, just not showing up when viewing in certain ways. Perhaps PS is a better program. But why wouldn't that detail be there in the Shutterfly prints? Bummer. Anyway, it's not a big deal. I was just trying to figure it out. The answer is for me to learn to take better night photos. But honestly considering I had never held a digital camera in my hands until the day before Halloween, I think I did a pretty good job!

Since copying the photos didn't do any good, I see no reason to try and post them to a website at this point and waste your time.
But thanks for all the input!

I'm going to work on the 'glitter' issue now as that is much more problematic to me.
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Old Nov 20, 2003, 4:02 PM   #19
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Wow, that's one heck of a complete reply, Gwen. Too bad the problem persists, but if you tackle everything the way you did this post, I'm sure you'll work it out. Good luck.

ir
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Old Nov 20, 2003, 4:28 PM   #20
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Okay, back to sending to web. I just tried to do that, to add some photos to a web page I'm building, and for the life of me I can't find that button. It isn't in Zoombrowser, it isn't in PS. I've done help searches for both of them also. Where the heck is it? I know I've seen it multiple times.

Thanks.
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