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Old Nov 18, 2003, 1:29 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by wrldromer
:lol: Great explanations. If understanding correctly, I can input 100 pix from media card to HD, then open/view/close them UNLTD times w/o and loss so long as NOT editing or otherwise saving as JPG?

So all best versions of edited pix stay in the PSD VAULT! Perfect original JPGs can stay on HD as perfect JPGs.

Don't want to push my questions into a 'mini course' but perhaps a few sentences on 'if and when we must go back to a JPG version?

IS IT necessary when emailing and resizing for email? Being certain to rename the file so as to RETAIN AND NOT OVERWRITE THE PSD PICTURE.? Or is it better to re-size, save again as PSD and email the PSD???? Thanks.
That is correct. And you don’t cause any further degradation after editing if you save in PNG, TIF, PSD or any other loseless format.

PSD is just Photoshop’s native format. There isn’t anything special about its ability to not cause degradation over many savings compared to TIFF, PNG etc. The only common format that causes image degradation is resaving in JPG.

There are many times you would want to “Save as” a JPG after altering or resizing a file. Your e-mail correspondents will appreciate your using it and there are many online sites that only store in JPG. If you “Save as” and either rename the shot or put it in a different folder you won’t impact your original image.

There isn’t a “PSD vault”. Just don’t “Save” as a JPG or you will overwrite your original.
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Old Nov 19, 2003, 3:55 AM   #12
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If you're shooting the original as JPEG, the best way to retain the archive version for economical storage, is to keep the camera file to produce a copy (lossless) and a 'Photoshop edit decision list' which you run like an Action and that duplicates the edit moves you did before and whilst in the editor, this ,allows further changes without the JPEG degradation, until the one and only last save.

Unfortunately, Adobe and most other software vendors haven't yet latched on to this technique, used on linear broadcast tape edit work stations for years! PS creates the undo list anyway and a load of extra tracking junk in their file headers, so I can't understand why they can't export a small file linked to the original worked on image. VOX
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Old Nov 19, 2003, 1:54 PM   #13
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Voxmagna

If I understand you correctly, it sounds like you're talking about the history palet in PS. It displays all the changes you've made (or the last X, where X is large) and you can roll them back. I don't know if the history pallet is saved in the PSD file or not, but I always assumed it was.

I've heard of others using layers for something similar. They make all their changes (that they can) in layers and then save it out that way. Then they can easily remove or modify a layer as needed (and colaps them before using them... but they don't save them colapsed.)

Eric
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Old Nov 19, 2003, 3:56 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by voxmagna
If you're shooting the original as JPEG, the best way to retain the archive version for economical storage, is to keep the camera file to produce a copy (lossless) and a 'Photoshop edit decision list' which you run like an Action and that duplicates the edit moves you did before and whilst in the editor, this ,allows further changes without the JPEG degradation, until the one and only last save.

Unfortunately, Adobe and most other software vendors haven't yet latched on to this technique, used on linear broadcast tape edit work stations for years! PS creates the undo list anyway and a load of extra tracking junk in their file headers, so I can't understand why they can't export a small file linked to the original worked on image. VOX
When you open a JPG in Photoshop it decompresses the image. Everything you do to the image is basically loseless. It is the same as working with a TIFF. There are losses associated with things like resampling, but that applies to all images and there is no total way around that. Sharpening will enhance any of the artifacts caused by the in-camera JPG compression, but that can’t be avoided either. Unless I misunderstand your point, I don’t think the same losses apply to working with a decompressed image as you would get working with tape.

I wouldn’t want anything linked to the original image saved on the drive. I always save my unmodified originals whether they are raw or JPG. One nice thing about the history palette is that if you accidentally “Save” and realize you just modified your original you can go back to the original in the history and save again. Then revert back to where you were on the image and “Save As”.

Eric Unless I have missed a setting all these years Photoshop 3-7 doesn’t seem to save the history in the PSD file. I wish it did. If they added the feature to CS it is an improvement IMO. It would make the image file larger by a good bit, but I think it should be a choice when you save as PSD.
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Old Nov 20, 2003, 7:05 AM   #15
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slipe et al, sorry If I didn't make it clear. You start with a high quality JPEG right, it's been saved once in the camera from a raw image - so there's one lossy save. You open A COPY in any editor and all the edit moves IN THAT SESSION ON SCREEN, are done on the expanded image (with first save artefacts). But then after the editing you 'save as' JPEG (cos you're mean on disc storage) and want to burn the pics for photo printing.

A month later you come back to the pic, and say - hey, I liked that print, but I'd like a bit less sharpen for the bigger photo print I want. If you go back to the finalised JPEG on CD or HD and re-edit, your subsequent save will be another JPEG compression.

However, you have this virtual 'edit decision list file' (which you saved separately and is the undo list of actions you saw at editing linked to the cam original 1st copy, through the EXIF or a file ID. And there's plenty of tracking data already there in PS!

Now you bring back a copy of the cam original, run the 'edit decision list (text?) file and can carry on editing/making changes as if you were in the first session and then save, so quality is no worse than the work in the first session.

It's so simple, I can't figure out why the clever edit software people haven't done it. I did think that a crude approach could be to record an action for each pic and save it with a name to Xref to the 1st cam copy - but that seems a really clunky way when you're editing pics on the fly. Regards VOX
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Old Nov 20, 2003, 8:31 AM   #16
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slipe

I wasn't sure if the history pallet was saved, I guess not. This is probably why I've read on several occasions that people edit into separate layers and save it that way. I assume layers are saved into the PSD (at a huge cost in file size, I'm sure... gotta be much larger than saving the history!)

voxmagna

I see what you're getting at and I think it would achieve the same results as saving the history pallet (well, an infinite history pallet) but in a way that would devorce it from the file format. Interesting idea.

Eric
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Old Nov 20, 2003, 1:58 PM   #17
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voxmagna

I see what you are getting at and like it. I would never save an image I worked on as a JPG except for limited purposes like posting, and even then I would also save a PSD.

But I would find it very handy to go back to a previous state and try something different for a different result without having to start from scratch – perhaps forgetting what steps I had taken to get to the junction point. It would be better than saving the history or separate layers for each step because the file size would be a lot more reasonable. Just a few layers can double the file size and I have no idea what the history would do. I know the history takes a lot of RAM.

An action with a pause after each step would let you rebuild easily to a certain point and not take much space. I would prefer an action with no pauses in Photoshop as it would quickly rebuild the history and you could then instantly go to any version. Even a complex action takes only a few k of space.
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Old Nov 20, 2003, 2:55 PM   #18
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This has been a most informative thread!

Thanks much to all who contributed.
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