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Old Aug 28, 2013, 7:55 AM   #11
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The sensor will need to be on the film plane in order to focus properly. The device probably needs to be removed from the host film camera for a number of reasons, not the least of which would be to retrieve the photos. When removing the device, how do you keep the sensor clean?

The device will almost certainly be thicker than film, so using this device will almost certainly damage the film pressure plate, if not requiring its removal entirely. Therefore, once you use your film camera with this device, you can't ever use it with film ever again. How would you feel about that?

If exposure to light is what triggers the device to capture an image, there would almost certainly be a lag time, so images would probably be underexposed, if not over the entire exposure then at least on some portion of the image. And what about photos of fireworks or nightscapes? Will the device still work in low light?

How would you be able to tell when the device needs attention, as when the card is full or the battery is dying?

Even if this thing does come to fruition, it won't be practical.
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Old Aug 28, 2013, 9:41 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TCav View Post
The sensor will need to be on the film plane in order to focus properly. The device probably needs to be removed from the host film camera for a number of reasons, not the least of which would be to retrieve the photos. When removing the device, how do you keep the sensor clean?
By cleaning it with sensor cleaning pads and solution the same way any capable photographer
does... Having the sensor out of the body for cleaning just makes it easier...

Here's how you clean a sensor on a DSLR (play the video)...

http://www.moosepeterson.com/blog/20...th-copperhill/

Imagine how much easier it would be if you could hold the sensor in your hand...?

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The device will almost certainly be thicker than film, so using this device will almost certainly damage the film pressure plate, if not requiring its removal entirely. Therefore, once you use your film camera with this device, you can't ever use it with film ever again. How would you feel about that?
The pressure plate in all three of my film SLR's (Minolta, Nikon and Yashika) is easily
removable/replaceable... The plate is mounted to a pair of flat springs that have slots
cut at the ends that slip under posts on the back with mushroom shaped tops... Slips
out, slips in / Easy-Peasy...!

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If exposure to light is what triggers the device to capture an image, there would almost certainly be a lag time, so images would probably be underexposed, if not over the entire exposure then at least on some portion of the image. And what about photos of fireworks or nightscapes? Will the device still work in low light?
It would probably work the same as Live-View does on a DSLR with possibly a few
limitations... THIS IS NOT INTENDED TO REPLACE OR SURPASS A DSLR,
just give those of us that want it the ability to shoot (with SOME limitations) our old
film SLR's with a digital sensor...

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How would you be able to tell when the device needs attention, as when the card is full or the battery is dying?
Probably with an audible beep-code, or if not then users would just (from experience)
use intuition gained from using the device...

Again, THIS IS NOT INTENDED TO REPLACE OR SURPASS A DSLR...!

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Even if this thing does come to fruition, it won't be practical.
It's not designed to be practical and it's not intended for people like you... It's intended for
people like me who would like a way to shoot digital with my old film SLR's and don't mind
a few limitations...
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Old Aug 28, 2013, 1:45 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wizzard0003 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by TCav View Post
The sensor will need to be on the film plane in order to focus properly. The device probably needs to be removed from the host film camera for a number of reasons, not the least of which would be to retrieve the photos. When removing the device, how do you keep the sensor clean?
By cleaning it with sensor cleaning pads and solution the same way any capable photographer
does... Having the sensor out of the body for cleaning just makes it easier...

Here's how you clean a sensor on a DSLR (play the video)...

http://www.moosepeterson.com/blog/20...th-copperhill/

Imagine how much easier it would be if you could hold the sensor in your hand...?
Note that my question wasn't ...
Quote:
... how [do] you clean a sensor ...
... but ...
Quote:
... how do you keep the sensor clean?
Yes, the fact that your film pressure plates are removable resolves that one issue.

I appreciate your speculations as to how the other issues I raised might be resolved. They could be resolved via workarounds as you suggest, or simply be tolerated by users as you also suggest. But if the device is not intended to be practical, I doubt many will consider it a viable alternative to not using old film cameras at all. After all, the significant outstanding investment isn't in the cameras but the lenses, and most of those old film lenses can already be reused on new dSLRs, and any problems that might be encountered when using old film lenses on new dSLRs will also be encountered with old film lenses using new image sensors.
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Old Aug 28, 2013, 2:40 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TCav View Post
Note that my question wasn't ...... but ...

Yes, the fact that your film pressure plates are removable resolves that one issue.

I appreciate your speculations as to how the other issues I raised might be resolved. They could be resolved via workarounds as you suggest, or simply be tolerated by users as you also suggest. But if the device is not intended to be practical, I doubt many will consider it a viable alternative to not using old film cameras at all. After all, the significant outstanding investment isn't in the cameras but the lenses, and most of those old film lenses can already be reused on new dSLRs, and any problems that might be encountered when using old film lenses on new dSLRs will also be encountered with old film lenses using new image sensors.
People don't own and drive antique Fire Engines, Model-T Fords or Steam powered
cars because they are "practical"... They don't build and fly Ultra-Lite aircraft because
they are "practical"... People don't own or do a LOT of things because it/they are "practical"...
They own/do these things because they are interested in them, it's their passion, it's their
hobby and they have fun... It makes them "Happy"...!

You either get it or you don't...

And BTW, cleaning the sensor IS how you keep it clean... If you're not interested in something
like this that's your choice, why find every half baked reason you possibly can to trash the idea
or the people who "are" interested... Playing the "semantics" game in an attempt to discredit
someone is about as low as correcting someones spelling...
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Old Aug 28, 2013, 3:07 PM   #15
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Well...

I hope he pulls it off. But, from watching the video and reading the comments, I'm still very skeptical.

I saw no working prototype of a device like was being described. Instead, I saw a demo of what appeared to be a digital camera mechanism of some type being used through the lens of a camera with the shutter already open, depressing something on it's back to take the photos.

Then, I see what is supposed to be the holder for the new camera sensor and electronics that appears to be designed so that it's not going to fit in all cameras (because you'll see various film compartments sizes, distances to the take up spool, etc.), without any camera mechanism in it.

Sure, you could design something that lets you adjust the sensor position. But, the device shown in the videos looks to be very limiting as to what it's going to fit in, especially with the variety of different camera sizes, wind mechanisms, etc.

Then, when I look through comments, it appears the sensor might be turned on in capture mode from the answer about how it's supposed to interface with the camera's shutter (the quote I made in my first reply to this post), with concerns about noise. That doesn't sound like it's being triggered by light (as my interpretation is that film wind mechanism is turning it on, and it can't be left in capture mode too long because of noise).

Basically, technical details seem to be very sparse; unless I'm just missing something from watching the video and reading the comments. If there was full working prototype available with more convincing details on how it's supposed to work, perhaps I'd be more positive.

IOW, I think this type of project is probably doable. I just don't have a comfortable feeling about this one without more technical details that make sense to me, a demo of a fully functional prototype, and some comments about any limitations the physical holder is going to have with various 35mm camera sizes and designs if it's supposed to turned on to capture images by the film wind mechanism (and if it's supposed to use the sensor's electronic shutter triggered when it detects light instead, the description and comments should say that).
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Old Aug 28, 2013, 4:00 PM   #16
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Camera manufacturers have released digital backs for cameras before, that were designed for a specific camera model (both Kodak and Leica have done that for some of their 35mm camera models before).

IWO, converting a film camera to digital is doable (replacing the entire camera back that's designed for a specific camera body, not using a drop in film cartridge design).

But, the DigiPod video and comments are very lacking on technical details (at least details that would convince me the design is going to work).

If the device was designed to fit a finite number of camera models, perhaps with firmware designed to trigger an electronic shutter in the sensor when light is detected, using an exposure system that increased the sensitivity enough to allow for delay in activating the sensor's electronic shutter; perhaps I'd be more positive.

But, the video and comments just don't convince me that the project fund raiser has a workable design yet, especially since he isn't demonstrating a fully working prototype from what I could tell from the video, and the comments about noise when it's turned on by the film wind mechanism don't make it sound like the design is using the sensor's electronic shutter either (which would be a better way to approach it from my perspective, so that it only starts capturing when it senses light).

Instead, it appears to be showing a digital camera of some flavor (small enough to fit into that film camera model) that appears to be taking photos through the lens of a film camera with the shutter left open by depressing something on the back of the digital camera mechanism. Then, I see a plastic holder that is supposedly going to hold the final product (that doesn't look like it would fit in all 35mm cameras to my eyes); with very little technical detail about how it's going to work (except for the comments about the wind mechanism turning it on, with a finite amount of time it will be left in that state due to noise concerns).

I just don't see that as being a design that is going to allow for good image quality, even if you could come up with a physical design that allowed it to work with more camera bodies and wind mechanism designs (see my first post in this thread about noise and/or loss of detail if trying to use dark frame subtraction), unless the technical details on how the rest of it works are just being left out (or I missed them), and it's really going to use an electronic shutter when light is detected instead (and I don't see the fund raiser stating that anywhere in the video or comments).

I've watched the full video twice, and I've also read through the comments. What I am missing?
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Old Aug 28, 2013, 4:55 PM   #17
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I have sort of been following along the thread, with some interest. It is an interesting idea, if feasible.
Some of the objections are not too difficult to overcome - the movement in the film pressure plate is surely enough to accommodate the thickness of a sensor chip, even without removal. Light seals on a camera back are there mostly to prevent exposure of film which is between the current frame and the reels, so having a ribbon cable extending outside to camera controls could be done quite easily, and using a contact closure on the hotshoe would work to trigger exposure, even on old manual SLRs.
I know people who spend much time and money on restoring old cars and motorcycles, but drive them very little. Others take their model planes out to fly a few weekends a year, but still lavish attention on them year - round.
The final product may not resemble the prototype in any way. I think this is just being used to gauge interest. Probably vaporware, but it is interesting to see what people can invent.

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Old Aug 28, 2013, 6:06 PM   #18
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The image sensor starts capturing an image when it detects that the camera's shutter is open. There will be some lag time between when the user presses the shutter release and the this device starts capturing an image. Since the camera's shutter is controlled by it's exposure meter, it will close the shutter when it thinks the film has been sufficiently exposed. But the device will stop capturing light when the camera's shutter closes, not when it has been sufficiently exposed. So the actual exposure time for the device will be the exposure time selected by the exposure meter minus the lag time. For long(ish) exposures, the difference won't be significant, but the faster the shutter speed, the greater the impact of the lag time.
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Old Aug 28, 2013, 6:07 PM   #19
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I'm guessing that this device won't bother to record any EXIF data.
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Old Aug 29, 2013, 1:11 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VTphotog View Post
I have sort of been following along the thread, with some interest. It is an interesting idea, if feasible.
Some of the objections are not too difficult to overcome - the movement in the film pressure plate is surely enough to accommodate the thickness of a sensor chip, even without removal. Light seals on a camera back are there mostly to prevent exposure of film which is between the current frame and the reels, so having a ribbon cable extending outside to camera controls could be done quite easily, and using a contact closure on the hotshoe would work to trigger exposure, even on old manual SLRs.
I know people who spend much time and money on restoring old cars and motorcycles, but drive them very little. Others take their model planes out to fly a few weekends a year, but still lavish attention on them year - round.
The final product may not resemble the prototype in any way. I think this is just being used to gauge interest. Probably vaporware, but it is interesting to see what people can invent.

brian
Exactly right, Brian...

The inventor isn't going to lay his entire design out for all the world to see and steal
his design... Nikon, Canon, Pentax, Sigma, etc, keep much of their technology secret
for the same reason, as do most other manufacturerers...

This is all about getting financial backing to perfect the design and bring it to market...
It's VERY expensive to do this kind of thing and all the inventor is asking for is support
as he probably doesn't have that kind of money lying around... Is it risky...? Absolutely...
For every product idea that makes it to market a thousand more never see the light
of day... There is no guaranty that this thing will work but IMHO the idea has some
solid legs... If the inventor gets enough support it MAY become available someday, if
he doesn't get support you can pretty much guaranty it won't...

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I'm guessing that this device won't bother to record any EXIF data.
Neither does film...
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