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DarkDTSHD Oct 10, 2007 9:08 AM

chris89 wrote:
Quote:

It's amazing what they managed to do.
Canon's 40D and 1D versions are left behind. Although the 1Ds mk3 still beats nikon in megapixels, but everybody knows mega pixels don't matter that much.

Nikon D3 and D300 get 9fps at full resolution!! and 11 without focus tracking. That's pretty sick.
And ISO 25.000? I never knew it existed, but Nikon pulled it off (partially thanks to sony).

Although Nikon had some disappointing releases in the past, these 2 cameras are definitely amazing me.
(i love how they took some of Canon's features and upgraded them Nikon style).

P.S. i'm no fan boy ;)
Hiya Chris,

As for more price dropping before the D300/D3 arrive...who knows. I mean they already began discounting and they are still 2 months away from putting the two DSLRs to market. Officially anyway.

And as for the specs you listed...they only apply to the D3 (e.g. 9 and 11 fps). The D300 can "only" do 6 and 8 fps (8 when using the vertical grip attachment using any battery type but the EN-EL3e...though we don't yet know that the fps will be when using the D2Xs/D3 battery....will have to wait for the test resports).

The picture samples Nikon USA has provided for the D3 are impressive. Take a look at the detail on the fireman picture. Not sure how much PP work was done on it. But WOW!!

Where are the D300 pictures? There are only 2 right now. Doesn't really show what the D300 is capable of. I think they are also low ISO pics too. Could be wrong.

If they got hold of a preproduction D3 to take the pictures they have at Nikon USA wuldn't they also have a D300? Why haven't they posted more pics? :P

Any how...back to waiting....heh....

NHL Oct 10, 2007 7:07 PM

Actually if you pre-order the D300 from Ritz the $1799 already included shipping and taxes so it's already discounted... ;)

I don't know why people are so skeptical about the high ISO noise - Most people don't shoot at high ISO plus Nikon don't put out junk (or any other camera maker for that matter) If the D300 can touch what the D2x does for 1/2 the price that's already a considerable achievement... They are not going to put the option of ISO-6400 if the 3200 setting is useless are they? You can already see early samples from the similarly based A700 sensor @ high ISO albeit at only 12-bit conversion... (again why put in a 14-bit option if the 12-bit is not useable?)

-> This camera is trying to do what the D40/D40x does at the low-end:
It's putting a new floor in the advanced amateur/pro market and complement the D3 extremely well... (surpassing the 40D and squeezing the 1DMrkIII right in the middle!)

IMO the demand for this camera will be great so unless you don't want a present for Xmas then wait for the review(s)... It won't change the camera performance a bit! :-) :lol: :G

DarkDTSHD Oct 10, 2007 7:42 PM

NHL wrote:
Quote:

Actually if you pre-order the D300 from Ritz the $1799 already included shipping and taxes so it's already discounted... ;)

I don't know why people are so skeptical about the high ISO noise - Most people don't shoot at high ISO plus Nikon don't put out junk (or any other camera maker for that matter) If the D300 can touch what the D2x does for 1/2 the price that's already a considerable achievement... They are not going to put the option of ISO-6400 if the 3200 setting is useless are they? You can already see early samples from the similarly based A700 sensor @ high ISO albeit at only 12-bit conversion... (again why put in a 14-bit option if the 12-bit is not useable?)

-> This camera is trying to do what the D40/D40x does at the low-end:
It's putting a new floor in the advanced amateur/pro market and complement the D3 extremely well... (surpassing the 40D and squeezing the 1DMrkIII right in the middle!)

IMO the demand for this camera will be great so unless you don't want a present for Xmas then wait for the review(s)... It won't change the camera performance a bit! :-) :lol: :G
Saving money on shipping and taxes is always good. If you're American. But, being a Canuck we have a different waranty system. We have 5 years on thelenses and 2 years onDSLRs. And should I have any problems it's a lot more convenient to have dealt with an established local shop. Even if our Canadian $ is doing so well lately.

High ISO's...true...most of us probably won't be shooting at high ISO speeds. But it's nice to have that ability should that situqation arise. That and if a DSLR has improved high ISO performance that usually means that the pics shot at low ISO are also better. So what not? :)

You could be right about pre-ordering now instead of waiting. Though, up here in Toronto, when the D200 came out it didn't take long for the 2nd batches to arrive. As usual the people who pre-ordered would get thiirs first. Then there was the 1st in-store batch. Then a week or two later there was the 2nd batch. From that point on there didn't seem to be much of a shortage.

Any how, for me, getting to look at the test reports will tell me if the new features perform as advertised. As you know there are several new features on the D300/D3. Such as "scene recognition", ISO 200-3200 performance, 51-point 3D tracking AF, "color recognition", "active d-lighting"....will they work? Remains to be seen.

I'm in no rush...if I was I could have picked up a Canon 40D. Ooooooops....I said the "C word" :)

NHL Oct 11, 2007 5:47 AM

DarkDTSHD wrote:
Quote:

Any how, for me, getting to look at the test reports will tell me if the new features perform as advertised. As you know there are several new features on the D300/D3. Such as "scene recognition", ISO 200-3200 performance, 51-point 3D tracking AF, "color recognition", "active d-lighting"....will they work? Remains to be seen.
All the more reasons to go for the D300 correct? ;)
Theses features are just bonuses...

Let say that the Canon 40D is really superior in high ISO images - Would it change the outcome any?
Noises are good talking points for web discussions but I highly doubt that'll make a difference in what people choose. I rather have megapixels for cropping on my smaller birds... and when I do shoot in low-light I use ISO-100 and a good steady platform for the camera to rest on!!! :-)

1. From the early Sony high ISO results they are quite useable IMO:
http://www.dyxum.com/dforum/forum_po...=213378#213378

2. Once you've played with that 920k rear LCD anything else is a step back in time, just go and play with the A700's LCD!

3. The CCD scene recognition is not new... The F5/F6 hence all the pro Nikon bodies have had this feature for years - I highly doubt a manufacturer like Nikon can mess this up other than improve upon it

4. A similar 51 AF point is also use on the D3 - How can it work in one and not the other and still release the camera?


Quote:

"color recognition", "active d-lighting"....will they work?
-> Theses are all software - Nothing that a firmware download wouldn't fix... :idea:


Again all theses features are just icing on the cake. I highly doubt if people change their mind on the camera selection :cool:




DarkDTSHD Oct 11, 2007 1:55 PM

NHL wrote:
Quote:

All the more reasons to go for the D300 correct? ;)
Theses features are just bonuses...

Let say that the Canon 40D is really superior in high ISO images - Would it change the outcome any?
Noises are good talking points for web discussions but I highly doubt that'll make a difference in what people choose. I rather have megapixels for cropping on my smaller birds... and when I do shoot in low-light I use ISO-100 and a good steady platform for the camera to rest on!!! :-)

1. From the early Sony high ISO results they are quite useable IMO:
http://www.dyxum.com/dforum/forum_po...=213378#213378

2. Once you've played with that 920k rear LCD anything else is a step back in time, just go and play with the A700's LCD!

3. The CCD scene recognition is not new... The F5/F6 hence all the pro Nikon bodies have had this feature for years - I highly doubt a manufacturer like Nikon can mess this up other than improve upon it

4. A similar 51 AF point is also use on the D3 - How can it work in one and not the other and still release the camera?


Quote:

"color recognition", "active d-lighting"....will they work?
-> Theses are all software - Nothing that a firmware download wouldn't fix... :idea:


Again all theses features are just icing on the cake. I highly doubt if people change their mind on the camera selection :cool:




Whether or not you consider them "icing" I would (and I do) expect to have the advertised features all working as said. I'm not giong to buy a new camera knowing it needs a serious firmware update from the get go. :)

And why are you mentioning the A700? Besides that fact that Nikons have been using Sony sensors. Is the new EXPEED chip in the D300 the same one in the A700? Even if so manufacturers have the chips "tuned" for their designs. Just because two cameras might use the same chip it down't necessarily mean they will perform the same.

Any how, as I said, I'm in no hurry. I can wait antoher 2-3 months. If I actually needed a DSLR yesterday I would have bought a Canon 40D. Seems to be working well. No complaints from 40D owners. Well no major ones. The few I did spot turned out to be "user error".

And you said the F6 has "scene recognition"? I have the F6 brochure. Didn't see any mention of it.

Any how, as I've said....on with my wait! :)

Btw....have you posted any of your pictures on www.pbase.com?

NHL Oct 11, 2007 2:41 PM

Most of my picures are posted on Steve's wildlife:
http://forums.steves-digicams.com/fo...r&page=116
... and landscapes:
http://forums.steves-digicams.com/fo...er&page=86

But I do have an older gallery @: http://www.pbase.com/nhl/portfolio

chris89 Oct 11, 2007 4:45 PM

DarkDTSHD wrote:
Quote:

chris89 wrote:
Quote:

It's amazing what they managed to do.
Canon's 40D and 1D versions are left behind. Although the 1Ds mk3 still beats nikon in megapixels, but everybody knows mega pixels don't matter that much.

Nikon D3 and D300 get 9fps at full resolution!! and 11 without focus tracking. That's pretty sick.
And ISO 25.000? I never knew it existed, but Nikon pulled it off (partially thanks to sony).

Although Nikon had some disappointing releases in the past, these 2 cameras are definitely amazing me.
(i love how they took some of Canon's features and upgraded them Nikon style).

P.S. i'm no fan boy ;)
Hiya Chris,

As for more price dropping before the D300/D3 arrive...who knows. I mean they already began discounting and they are still 2 months away from putting the two DSLRs to market. Officially anyway.

And as for the specs you listed...they only apply to the D3 (e.g. 9 and 11 fps). The D300 can "only" do 6 and 8 fps (8 when using the vertical grip attachment using any battery type but the EN-EL3e...though we don't yet know that the fps will be when using the D2Xs/D3 battery....will have to wait for the test resports).

The picture samples Nikon USA has provided for the D3 are impressive. Take a look at the detail on the fireman picture. Not sure how much PP work was done on it. But WOW!!

Where are the D300 pictures? There are only 2 right now. Doesn't really show what the D300 is capable of. I think they are also low ISO pics too. Could be wrong.

If they got hold of a preproduction D3 to take the pictures they have at Nikon USA wuldn't they also have a D300? Why haven't they posted more pics? :P

Any how...back to waiting....heh....
Yes it makes one think. Good point.

musket Oct 11, 2007 5:37 PM

Some more photo's from the D3

http://galleries.daveeinsel.com/d3test/

:|....................musket

DarkDTSHD Oct 11, 2007 8:35 PM

musket wrote:
Quote:

Some more photo's from the D3

http://galleries.daveeinsel.com/d3test/

:|....................musket
Thanks for the pics! ;) But as I've been saying. Where ar ethe D300 sample pics?? Let's go Nikon!!!

If you go to the Nikon USA site you'll notice that for the D3 they have a samples section with the 5 pics Nikon USA took using the D3. Most likely with a pre-production D3. But on the D300 webpage there are no pics. Not even the two Harley pics that was previously available. What's up Nikon?

Let's hope Nikon is preparing to bombard us with some high quality D300 sample pics soon. :)

DarkDTSHD Oct 12, 2007 9:00 PM

Hello Guys,

I just came from (well a few hours ago) the local "Photographic & Digital Imaging Show" here in Toronto. It was pretty much the same format as last year's. Minus a few "secluded" seminar rooms. All seminars were out in the open in sectioned off areas. They even had a hands-on Apple iLife 08 workshop. But I digress...

Any how, I'm posting to say that while at the show I did get to put my mits onpre-production D300's and D3's. They actually had a few of them on hand for demoing. :) I was surprised. Got to take some shots. And fire off some continuous bursts. It was sweet. Firing off 6 and 9 fps.

On the D300 I think they had their new 14-24 f/2.8 "Nano" ultra-wide. And on the D3 I think they had the 70-200 f/2.8. Nothing like shooting with 6 plus pounds of camera gear. :) But really while you definitely felt the weight it wasn't that uncomfortable. Though, I didn't have to carry it around for 8 hours.

After a day of shooting with a D3 and a 70-200 f/2.8 the user should have arms like Schwarzenegger!! :) No need for expensive gym memberships!!

You definitely got the feeling that they are both very well built. Very solid. Nice fit and finish.

And from the few picture samples I did see (taken by myself and another userwith both cameras (looking at the 920k LCD) it seems the AF did a good job. When shooting in continuous mode and in single-shot. Though there was slight blur in one shot. The user who took the shots raised the camera up with one arm and fired off a burstso he wasn't that stable. And I think he fired as he jerked his arm up. Doesn't help. But knowing that the pics still turned out well.

There was a "Pro" (hate the word "Pro"...sounds so pretentious), a top Canadian photograher by the name of Kristian Bogner. He was there demoing the D3/D300 and Nikon software briefly. He took a D3 to a baseball game and took some shots. Continuous mode. Blue Jays. And of course his shots all turned out well. No blur.

It was nice seeing a 9 fps breakdown of a pitch. :) And he showed the audience several high ISO shots. At ISO 3200 and 6400. Looked sweet!! And the images were projected onto a bigscreen.

And while I was at the Nikon booth I also found out that in Canada the first run of D3's will ONLY be sold to working photographers.You have to prove you're a "working photographer" to get one. And that the second batch probably won't be available till roughly March 08. :) Nice! I guess I won't get to plead "temporary insanity" in December. :) And have to "settle" with a D300 (assuming I like what I read in the test reports).

Later people.


musket Oct 13, 2007 11:33 AM

Some D300 galleries found on the web :-)

http://galleries.daveeinsel.com/d300test/

http://www.flickr.com/groups/nikon_d300_users/

http://www.pbase.com/dlcmh/nikon_d300

...........:|..........musket

DarkDTSHD Oct 13, 2007 12:40 PM

musket wrote: Good finds!! Thanks!! :D

musket Oct 23, 2007 12:06 PM

More info might leak outat the Manchester expo07

you can register for your free place now

http://www.nikon.co.uk/utilities/hos...o07/index.html

....................musket

NHL Nov 13, 2007 11:43 AM

FYI: http://www.e-fotografija.si/template...=94&page=2

DarkDTSHD Nov 13, 2007 4:00 PM

NHL wrote: Thanks for the link. Finally some quality sample photos from a production d300. I like how they provided crops on the eye of one of the models. With the photo shot at high ISO (3200). Very nice. Even if they did so some PP afterwards.

Still, I'd love to see the test reports. Hope we get them in December.

Some one (won't name names) read that the D300 was having troubles picking the right AF point. So in continuous burst mode some shots might be off. But I think that was "user error". I doubt the production models would have troubles choosing the right AF point with 51 available. But who knows.

Another thing. With cameras like the D300...why does Nikon insist on saying "Made in thailand" when it was only "assembled" in Thailand. I think the parts are still "made in Japan". At least the Xspeed processor is for sure. Any how, according to Nikonians it doesn't matter as there hasn't been any reliability issues with cameras made in the land of Siam.

NHL Nov 15, 2007 6:01 AM

DarkDTSHD wrote:
Quote:

Another thing. With cameras like the D300...why does Nikon insist on saying "Made in thailand" when it was only "assembled" in Thailand. I think the parts are still "made in Japan". At least the Xspeed processor is for sure. Any how, according to Nikonians it doesn't matter as there hasn't been any reliability issues with cameras made in the land of Siam.
In this day and age it doesn't matter where a product is made... ;)

The factories have to be located where the labor is cheap (beside customers also want to pay the lowest price for a product) for the manufacturers to compete. Theses factories are all certified to ISO-9001 in order to ship products into Europe and high precision machines with high tolerances make the product. The quality control and final tests are also highly automated so it doesn't matter then where theses factories are located as long as the cost of running them are low. You could build them in "Japan" but if the same camera has to cost $3000 instead of <$2000 will you pay for it?

I'm not so sure about the processor either as most of the best fabs with the tinyest geometries are also located in Thailand or China and not Japan - See where Intel and AMD build their chips... ;)

JimC Nov 15, 2007 8:47 AM

If anyone has been waiting for the D300, apparently Ritz Camera is now sending out e-mails to a lot of people that pre-ordered the D300 indicating that their cameras are now enroute to Ritz warehouses from Nikon.


NHL Nov 15, 2007 9:49 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Not everyone do... It depends on when you ordered it - My E-mail just says to check the status: :evil:


DarkDTSHD Nov 15, 2007 9:55 AM

NHL wrote:
Quote:

DarkDTSHD wrote:
Quote:

Another thing. With cameras like the D300...why does Nikon insist on saying "Made in thailand" when it was only "assembled" in Thailand. I think the parts are still "made in Japan". At least the Xspeed processor is for sure. Any how, according to Nikonians it doesn't matter as there hasn't been any reliability issues with cameras made in the land of Siam.
In this day and age it doesn't matter where a product is made... ;)

The factories have to be located where the labor is cheap (beside customers also want to pay the lowest price for a product) for the manufacturers to compete. Theses factories are all certified to ISO-9001 in order to ship products into Europe and high precision machines with high tolerances make the product. The quality control and final tests are also highly automated so it doesn't matter then where theses factories are located as long as the cost of running them are low. You could build them in "Japan" but if the same camera has to cost $3000 instead of <$2000 will you pay for it?

I'm not so sure about the processor either as most of the best fabs with the tinyest geometries are also located in Thailand or China and not Japan - See where Intel and AMD build their chips... ;)
Hey NHL,

While I'm sure cost definitely does factor into it Nikon at the same timestill manufactures their top dogs in Japan. Their D2Hs/D2Xs/D3 DSLRs and pro-grade glass. Why? Because even Nikon most likely also believes things "Made in Japan" is better. I mean, if the fact that the QA proess is so automated (ensuring consistent QA), then why isn't Nikon having ALL their gear made in Thailand? Would it not be even more cost effective to also have their flagship DSLRs/lenses made in Thailand? Are they doing something extra special in Japan? Something theyaren't doing in Thailand? Gets you wondering.

Canon still manufactures all their DSLRs/lenses/accessories in Japan. They have been since who knows when. Probably since they began manufacturing digital cameras. And likely before then. Perhaps since they began making cameras period. What does that tell you (us)?:)

Any how, thanks for explaining why Nikon cameras made in Thailand should be fine.It definitely is more reassuring to know that in addition to a very automated QA process thatthe factories are also ISO-9001 certified. I always assumed that was a North American thing. We see HUGE ISO-9001 banners drapped on the side of some local computer firms.

Having said that, if manufacturing plants in Thailand/China,are requiredto be "ISO-9001 certified" and while plants in Japan do not....or are they also now?

JimC,

Thanks for the news!

It seems "offical release dates" don't amount to much these days. Assuming Nikon D300 owners get theirs before the 23rd (Japan's offical date). In Canada the offical date is December 10th.

Canon 40D owners got theirs as much as 4 weeks in advance.

Maybe the "official dates" are just to quiet the press as they hound the manufacturers for information. :)

NHL Nov 15, 2007 10:02 AM

DarkDTSHD wrote:
Quote:

While I'm sure cost definitely does factor into it Nikon at the same timestill manufactures their top dogs in Japan. Their D2Hs/D2Xs/D3 DSLRs and pro-grade glass. Why? Because even Nikon most likely also believes things "Made in Japan" is better. I mean, if the fact that the QA proess is so automated (ensuring consistent QA), then why isn't Nikon having ALL their gear made in Thailand? Would it not be even more cost effective to also have their flagship DSLRs/lenses made in Thailand? Are they doing something extra special in Japan? Something theyaren't doing in Thailand? Gets you wondering.
Yeap - The "Pro" models are $4000+ (and low volume) - Would you pay that price? :G

ISO-9001 and ROHS (lead-free) are requirements for Europe - i.e. you don't get to do business in the EU otherwise... ;)

DarkDTSHD Nov 15, 2007 10:12 AM

NHL wrote:
Quote:

DarkDTSHD wrote:
Quote:

While I'm sure cost definitely does factor into it Nikon at the same timestill manufactures their top dogs in Japan. Their D2Hs/D2Xs/D3 DSLRs and pro-grade glass. Why? Because even Nikon most likely also believes things "Made in Japan" is better. I mean, if the fact that the QA proess is so automated (ensuring consistent QA), then why isn't Nikon having ALL their gear made in Thailand? Would it not be even more cost effective to also have their flagship DSLRs/lenses made in Thailand? Are they doing something extra special in Japan? Something theyaren't doing in Thailand? Gets you wondering.
Yeap - The "Pro" models are $4000+ (and low volume) - Would you pay that price? :G

ISO-9001 and ROHS (lead-free) are requirements for Europe - i.e. you don't get to do business in the EU otherwise... ;)
Ummmm the D3 does look very attractive. At least on paper. And the pics we've seen from Nikon USA are darnn impressive. Especially the fireman pic. Hmmm...

Kidding. Probably also go with a D300. Assuming I like what I read in the test reports. Keep us posted. :)

Regarding ISO-9001 and Europe...I see.

DarkDTSHD Nov 15, 2007 7:56 PM

Here are some recent D3 high ISO sample pics. There are a few pics with dead pixels but those were shot using a preproduction D3 (David Einsel's...the others were probably shot with preproduction D3's too but don't say)...

http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/mul...id=7-8745-9153

Hope I don't get a D300 with dead pixels. :)

NHL Nov 16, 2007 11:36 AM

DarkDTSHD wrote:
Quote:

Hope I don't get a D300 with dead pixels. :)
If anything you are guaranteed to get a dead pixel... :-)

If a manufacturer can get a 99.999999% yield on a 12Mp which is rather unlikely that's still 12 dead pixels per sensor. With smaller dies on a large wafer they can throw it out, but a sensor is rather large and a full-frame has even a bigger area (i.e. more chance for bad pixels) than a cropped one - They'll just map it out
On a Bayer based sensor you are going to interpolate the result anyway! :idea:

-> Think about your flash card, it's the same thing, the defects are built-in to the design of the cards and there's already error/detection/correction algorithm in them so you don't get a corrupted picture...

DarkDTSHD Nov 16, 2007 12:41 PM

NHL wrote:
Quote:

DarkDTSHD wrote:
Quote:

Hope I don't get a D300 with dead pixels. :)
If anything you are guaranteed to get a dead pixel... :-)

If a manufacturer can get a 99.999999% yield on a 12Mp which is rather unlikely that's still 12 dead pixels per sensor. With smaller dies on a large wafer they can throw it out, but a sensor is rather large and a full-frame has even a bigger area (i.e. more chance for bad pixels) than a cropped one - They'll just map it out
On a Bayer based sensor you are going to interpolate the result anyway! :idea:

-> Think about your flash card, it's the same thing, the defects are built-in to the design of the cards and there's already error/detection/correction algorithm in them so you don't get a corrupted picture...
That's reassuring. :) Usually when you see bad pixels on your monitor it's time to exchange it. So, I suppose with digital cameras and the pictures they produce, as long as you don't notice it...I didn't see the dead pixels on the sample D3 pics...

When you said we're going to "interpolate the result anyway" did you mean when PP?

JimC Nov 16, 2007 12:59 PM

Those pixels are hot (too bright), not dead.

If you have a pixel that is always hot (bright), even on shorter exposures in good light, then it's referred to as a "Stuck" pixel. A pixel that's always dark is referred to as a dead pixel.

In most cases, when a camera develops a stuck pixel, a trip back to the manufacturer is needed. The manufacturer then updates a bad pixel table in EEPROM. When a photo is taken the image processing automatically checks the camera's bad pixel table and maps the pixel out (replaces it with values determined from adjacent pixels using sophisticated interpolation algorithms.

With most Nikon models, a trip back to the manufacturer is needed. But, with the D100 you can find software to do it yourself. The manufacturers don't normally release service software to the public though.

The idea is to make sure there is an acceptable number of defects in the conditions you're using the sensor in (light, temperature, ISO speed, shutter speed).

For the defective photosites that are in a camera's sensor at typical conditions, the factory has already mapped them out. So, while you may think your sensor is perfect, chances are, it's not. When users of cameras that develop a bad pixel use software to update the table in EEPROM, they usually see that other pixels were also found (these are the ones that were already mapped out by the factory).

Keep in mind that you've got millions of photosites, and each one is only sensitive to one color anyway (Red, Green or Blue in most Bayer Pattern designs). So, the demosaic/interpolation algorithms are combining values from multiple photosites to store at each pixel location.

As a result, photosites that are not linear in their sensitivity (either too bright or too dark compared to the way they should be), don't have as much impact on a final image when they are remapped.

It's also not uncommon for a CCD to develop more bad pixels as a camera ages (and temperature plays a role, too).

With older camera models, when you had a bad pixel (either dead or stuck on) the manufacturer's typically ran a service program to update the bad pixel map. Most consumers thought the CCD was being replaced, when the camera's processing is just interpolating to replace the bad ones. ;-) Some models only do this with jpeg data, and some also replace data in raw files.

You can find software to update some models yourself now (for a number of consumer cameras made by Nikon, Olympus and others). You can even find software to update the bad pixel table in some DSLR models (for example, the Nikon D100).

Here is one example that can work with some of the Nikon and Olympus consumer models (and I've got software to do it for the Nikon D100, too; and I know of someone that has the factory service software for some older Canon DSLR models).

http://e2500.narod.ru/ccd_defect_e.htm

With some newer cameras, the manufacturers started finding a way to let the camera do it without the need for separate service software. Olympus started it first (AFAIK), beginning with their Olympus E10 Model (this 4MP 2/3" Olympus desginedCCD was very bad for getting stuck pixels, so they came out with a firmware upgrade designed to check for them and map them out). Many newer models from Olympus also have a menu choice to remap bad pixels (even though they're not using Olympus designed sensors anymore).

Konica Minolta put in an Automatic routine to check for bad pixels and map them out monthly in some of their newer models (for example, models like the KM DiMAGE A200 and my Maxxum 5D do this). Sony retained this feature with the DSLR-A100.

I haven't checked my A700 to see if it does the same thing yet (it probably does though). You can force a remap with these models by setting the date up one month, turning it off and letting it go through the remap routine, then seting the date back correctly. It' s an undocumented feature that's been shown to work with these models (and you can see the busy light stay on much longer while it's going through the remap routine after a month change and a power off).



DarkDTSHD Nov 16, 2007 1:24 PM

Hey JimC,

Thanks for clearing that up. "Bright" versus "dark" pixels. But as I said I didn't see any dark pixels in the D3 pics. So maybe it's not a big deal. At least for "inexperienced eyes". Perhaps you'd have to make a print to see them? (shrug) :)

Btw...can you explain what is mean by "the second version has been lightened slightly in Photoshop and shows how well a D3 file can handle this type of adjustment, even when shot at a higher ISO setting."?



JimC Nov 16, 2007 1:37 PM

I haven't read the article.

But, if you brighten an image later, you're "pushing" the exposure. So, you have a higher effective ISO speed when you use that technique (because you would have normally required a slower shutter speed or higher ISO speed for the same exposure at a given lighting level and aperture). You'll see a visible increase in noise levels when you use that technique.

That's also a problem I'm seeing when users start to compare various camera models to see how noise compares. They sometimes compare totally different exposures (one model is exposing brighter than the other, or totally different aperture/shutter speed combinations are being used for the same exposure).

For example, I looked at one recent comparison of the Sony DSLR-A700 and Nikon D300 (pre-production) where the D300 appeared to have lower noise levels at higher ISO speed settings for the same subject in the same lighting.

But (big but), the Sony had shutter speeds exactly *twice* as fast as the D300 for the same subject, lighting, aperture and ISO speed. So, in that comparision, you'd really need to compare the D300's ISO 3200 with the A700's ISO 1600 images for a fair comparison (because the Sony was able to get the same exposure at ISO 1600 as the D300 required ISO 3200 to get from a shutter speed/aperture perspective).

We'll have to wait for reviews in controlled conditions to see how they really compare (and to make sure there are not some significant sensitivity differences between them for a given set ISO speed).

Some of that can boil down to metering differences if the images end up with different brightness (and noise tends to be worse in underexposed areas). Some of it may be sensitivity differences (cameras more or less sensitive than set). So, you have to be careful jumping to conclusions when comparing cameras, unless the conditions are *very* well controlled (preferrably with manual exposure, identical subjects/lighting, ISO speed settings, WB settings, etc.).

Another issue I'm seeing with some newer cameras is more sophisticated image processing (like Nikon's D-Lighting Feature and Sony's Dynamic Range Optimization).

These features are typically just boosting shadow areas or using different tone curves designed to decrease or increase brightness of parts of the image. If you brighten a darker ISO 3200 image by one stop, for all practical purposes, you're shooting at ISO 6400. ;-) IOW, make sure any comparisons you look at have these types of features disabled, using the same camera settings for apeture and ISO speed, same lighting, subjects, ISO speed, white balance, etc. to get a better idea of how the camera models really compare.


DarkDTSHD Nov 16, 2007 2:11 PM

Nikon Japan just posted a few more samplepics using a D300. But unfortunately they are at low ISO again. I think there is one at ISO 400. Not sure. But here's the link...

http://www.nikon-image.com/jpn/produ...300/sample.htm

Also in the news...Nikon UK is planning to include a copy of Capter NX with their D300/D3 cameras. Limited time offer. :) Hope we North Americans will get the same offer (if I end up going with a D300 heh).

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0711/07111604capturenx.asp

NHL Nov 16, 2007 3:55 PM

DarkDTSHD wrote:
Quote:

When you said we're going to "interpolate the result anyway" did you mean when PP?
No - A camera sensor do not capture the whole color image, but only a 1/3 of its resolution (let's keep it simple) in each primary color: Red, Green, and Blue. The final image you get from the camera is in full-color, but 2/3 of of the color data are missing from each photosite - for example a red pixel can not capture the green or blue color and vice versa...

-> Theses colors info have to be interpolated from nearby pixels: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayer_filter

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...rofile.svg.png

DarkDTSHD Nov 19, 2007 6:56 PM

New D3 news...for Canadians...but the release date could be the same in the US too...

http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/con...id=7-8745-9167

NHL Nov 20, 2007 4:37 PM

DarkDTSHD wrote:
Quote:

Kidding. Probably also go with a D300. Assuming I like what I read in the test reports. Keep us posted. :)

Regarding ISO-9001 and Europe...I see.
Well It looks like the French have reviewed the D300 and put it ahead of the 40D and A700... ;)

It should for commanding a higher price!!! :lol::-):G

DarkDTSHD Nov 20, 2007 5:55 PM

NHL wrote:
Quote:

DarkDTSHD wrote:
Quote:

Kidding. Probably also go with a D300. Assuming I like what I read in the test reports. Keep us posted. :)

Regarding ISO-9001 and Europe...I see.
Well It looks like the French have reviewed the D300 and put it ahead of the 40D and A700... ;)

It should for commanding a higher price!!! :lol::-):G
Is any one fluent in French? :)

http://translate.google.com/translat...6rlz%3D1I7ADBR

JimC Nov 20, 2007 6:54 PM

NHL wrote:
Quote:

Well It looks like the French have reviewed the D300 and put it ahead of the 40D and A700... ;)
From what I understand, Chasseur d'Images changed the Sony A700 to 5 stars like the D300 after Sony released the new version 2 firmware, and sacrificed a two page spread to cover the update improvements.

Even more interesting, is that their tests of the camera convinced Sony to change the firmware from what I've heard about it. I haven't read the review yet (and Google Translate seems to be having a problem with their web pages right now). My French stinks. So, I'd need a translation. lol

Most reviews I've seen so far put the A700 ahead of the 40D for image quality. I have not seen much in the way of direct comparisons of the A700 and 40D with the D300 yet.

I'd like to see some higher ISO speed tests with the D300 and A700 in more controlled conditions. One test I looked at seemed to imply that the A700 was almost a stop more sensitive at higher ISO speeds compared to the D300. The A700 was getting shutter speeds exactly twice as fast as the D300 in the same lighting with the same aperture and ISO speed shooting the same subjects (so the Sony's ISO 1600 was as senstive as the D300's ISO 3200). But, that was with a preproduction D300 and the tester was using a different color space and WB to shoot them. So, I'll wait until I see comparisons from more reviewers in controlled conditions to find out how they compare in this area.

Quote:

It should for commanding a higher price!!! :lol::-):G
Well, at least NIkon looks like they're going to include Capture NX with the D300 and D3 now, versus charging extra for it like they do with other DSLR models. That helps to make it more competitive. A wireless remote control like Sony includes would help, too. ;-)

The D300 is in an interesting market niche. It's more expensive compared to advanced amateur models like the Sony A700 and Canon D40. But, it does have some great features that distinquish it for sports shooters (faster frame rate, etc.).


DarkDTSHD Nov 20, 2007 7:12 PM

I believe only Nikon UK is including Capture NX with their D3/D300 models. Limited time offer. Would be great if Nikon Canada/USA does the same. :)

And for an advanced detailed "look" at the D300/D3 d/l the non-printable User's Manuals from the Nikon USA website. See here ---->

http://www.nikonusa.com/pdf/manuals/...en_noprint.pdf


http://www.nikonusa.com/pdf/manuals/...en_noprint.pdf

DarkDTSHD Nov 21, 2007 8:37 PM

A production D300 has arrived in Shanghai, China...and into the hands of a lucky owner.

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/re...ssage=25686377

hugabone Nov 21, 2007 8:47 PM

Its here in the states, Ritzcamera in Washington DC has them. Awesome camera.

DarkDTSHD Nov 21, 2007 8:52 PM

hugabone wrote:
Quote:

Its here in the states, Ritzcamera in Washington DC has them. Awesome camera.
They have them in the shop already?? The RitzCamera website still lists the D300 as a pre-order item (http://www.ritzcamera.com/product/54...igital-cameras). Maybe the webmasters are just slow. Do you know if it comes with the Capture NX disc or just a code (as is the case for the new owner in Shanghai)?

And being that people are already getting theirs hopefully we'll see some test reports soon. :)

Are you getting one?

hugabone Nov 21, 2007 9:12 PM

1 Attachment(s)
DarkDTSHD wrote:
Quote:

hugabone wrote:
Quote:

Its here in the states, Ritzcamera in Washington DC has them. Awesome camera.
They have them in the shop already?? Do you know if it comes with the Capture NX disc or just a code (as is the case for the new owner in Shanghai)?

And being that people are already getting theirs hopefully we'll see some test reports soon. :)

Are you getting one?
Yes it does come with Capture NX, it's written BIG on the box but I'm not sure wherther it was a code or disc. Maybe I'll post some shots from it while I was in the store. I'm getting one but from Circuit City when they get theirs. Here is a shot, you can see the box of the D300.

DarkDTSHD Nov 21, 2007 9:39 PM

Thanks hugabone,

I just checked the Canadian camera store websites. Our websites still say December. :) Hope it's just the webmasters dragging their feet. Canadian webmasters are notoriously slow at updating their websites. Canon Canadahas only recently added the40D to their website and it's been available for almost 3 months now.

As for me, I'll most likely be getting one, but I would like to read some test reports/user impressions first.

And they did just drop the price of the D300/D3 ($1869.95/$5299.99 CAD...down by $130/$200 respectively).

Also, since the D300 is already being sold, hopefully new D300 owners will start posting user impressions soon....here... :)


DarkDTSHD Nov 24, 2007 10:44 AM

Found a review of the D300 on a British site. The article title leads you to believe that it would mostly be discussing "active d-lighting" but it turns out they onlyused ashort paragraph discussing that. This is actually a detailed "user impreesion" article quickly going over most of the major features and usage. Answering a few of my questions and possibly a few of yours. But there are no graphs or test photos. Still, it's worth a read IMHO...see here...

http://www.bjp-online.com/public/sho...p;print=637711

(Note: I had to sign up for a free 2 week trial membership to get access to this article. If you have any trouble accessing this link in the coming weeks please feel free to PM me. As I have saved a copy as a MS Word *.doc file.)

Looks that much more likely I'm going to be getting my D300 now. :) Hopefully, Steve and Phil Askey are working on their test reports as we speak.


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