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-   -   Nikon should NOT be selling camera's they can't produce (https://forums.steves-digicams.com/nikon-dslr-57/nikon-should-not-selling-cameras-they-cant-produce-199013/)

jack55 May 22, 2012 7:39 PM

Nikon should NOT be selling camera's they can't produce
 
I HATE:mad: Nikon's practice of putting a camera on the market when they aren't ready! I know of several that have been waiting for their D800 for over 6 weeks now. I absolutely won't by a new Nikon for that reason for at least 6-12 months for that reason and time for them to work out the bugs (firmware).

NOW is the time to buy the former greats, D700, D3 as those folks are needing $$$ for the new stuff. Which I just did yesterday. Got a great deal on a low shutter count, like new D3. :D

Marawder May 23, 2012 7:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jack55 (Post 1302654)
NOW is the time to buy the former greats, D700, D3

I totally second that, good remark!!! :cool:

JimC May 23, 2012 9:47 AM

Well... I think the demand was higher than anticipated. Plus the Thailand Floods caused a lot of problems in the Industry.

IOW, Nikon isn't the only one that had problems meeting demand. The same thing applied to a lot of other products (including some Digital Cameras from some of the other manufacturers), as manufacturers had to try and move building of some products and components elsewhere to try and restart manufacturing of them in other facilities, because a lot of parts (not just cameras) were being made in Thailand.

One good example of how the flooding impacted other products was the Hard Drive shortages we saw, because a lot of the critical parts used were made in Thailand (plus Western Digital and Seagate had plants there).

So, even manufacturers that built them elsewhere had problems with things like procurement of the Stepping Motors used in them (because most of them were manufactured in Thailand and the plants that made them were underwater).

As a result, many retailers sold out of popular hard drive models, and the vendors that still had them were selling them at ridiculous prices.

Hard Drive supply is about back to normal again now. But, it took a number of months for the industry to recover.

jack55 May 23, 2012 9:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimC (Post 1302760)
Well... I think the demand was higher than anticipated. Plus the Thailand Floods caused a lot of problems in the Industry.

IOW, Nikon isn't the only one that had problems meeting demand. The same thing applied to a lot of other products (including Digital Camera from some of the other manufacturers).

One good example of how the flooding impacted other products was the Hard Drive shortages we saw, because a lot of the critical parts used were made in Thailand.

So, even manufacturers that built them elsewhere had problems with things like procurement of the Stepping Motors used in them (because most of them were manufactured in Thailand and the plants that made them were underwater).

As a result, many retailers sold out of popular hard drive models, and the vendors that still had them were selling them at ridiculous prices.

Hard Drive supply is back to normal again now. But, it took months for the industry to recover.

You may be right on some counts, but how about the other ones like the D7000 and older models when they came out, there was a waiting period then too. Nikon tends to release new camera before they have enough in stock. It's almost like their testing the market to see how many they may need to make, or trying to get some front money before mass producing or something along those lines.

IF it is like your saying Jim, then Nikon should NOT have announced the new models until they knew they could produce them in a timely manner.

JimC May 23, 2012 10:06 AM

Thom Hogan has some very good commentary on the on the subject titled "Balance Points" from March 26, 2012. You'll find it if you scroll down on this page (for now, but he tends to move the articles to the archive section periodically).

http://www.bythom.com/2012%20Nikon%20News.htm

He makes some very good points. For example, how many months would you be willing to wait in order to guarantee you could get a new model on the day it's announced? IOW, would you want to wait another 6 months for them to produce enough cameras if the initial demand is that high (and judging what the demand for a product will be before it's shipping can be difficult).

He also goes into some of the internal logistics involved in production runs over a product's lifecycle, along with how manufacturers have to weigh the result of a larger first run in case any issues are discovered that did not turn up in their testing of the product (because a product as complex as a higher end digital camera may have issues that don't turn up until it gets into the hands of thousands), and require changes in the production line to correct for any problems found.

Remember the D5000 power switch issues, where they ended up recalling a lot of them? Can you imagine what that would have cost Nikon if they had made a 12 months demand run of them in advance?

He also goes into the differences in building a plant for a mass market item with a short life cycle, versus a niche market item (like a Nikon Pro level camera model that has a much longer life cycle), and why it's not practical to build a larger manufacturing capacity for that type of product.

Thom's a smart guy, and he thinks that Nikon has struck a good balance in how they're approaching the manufacturing of the D800 and D4. Of course, you're still going to have buyers upset that they can't get their hands on one easily without a wait. ;-)

jack55 May 23, 2012 1:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jack55 (Post 1302762)
It's almost like their testing the market to see how many they may need to make, or trying to get some front money before mass producing or something along those lines.

Quote:

I absolutely won't by a new Nikon for that reason for at least 6-12 months for that reason and time for them to work out the bugs (firmware).

NOW is the time to buy the former greats, D700, D3 as those folks are needing $$$ for the new stuff. Which I just did yesterday. Got a great deal on a low shutter count, like new D3. :D
Well then, it's just like I thought as I said in two of my previous posts.
I've been involved in Photography since 1971 and have owned many cameras and don't think I've ever bought one unless they were already out for a while.
I knew back then camera makers always had to work out the bugs of their new cameras... except for maybe the Pentax K1000 series, Olympus OM1, Minolta SRT 101 series , Canon F-1 series, Nikon F2 series... which I owned way back then at one time or another.

JimC May 23, 2012 2:16 PM

Most of the time, I've done it the other way around (early adopter of cameras I've bought).

For example, I can remember buying an Epson 3000Z just as it was introduced. I did the same thing with Nikon Coolpix 990. Interestingly, that model had the same kind of supply issues as the Nikon models we're discussing, as demand was very high when it was introduced, and it was very hard to find one. You'd find them used on Ebay months after their introduction for more than the retail price of them at the time, because dealers couldn't keep up with demand. lol

I did the same thing with a little Konica Minolta KD-510Z I bought, going with a Japanese camera from an Ebay Seller, because it was available earlier than the Minolta G500 (identical camera), despite the potential problems with going gray market.

I was also an early adopter of a Konica Minolta Maxxum 5D (that I still have), and I still use what appears to be the 108th Sony A700 off the line in the first production run for the U.S. market, getting my hands on one in September 2007. lol

There's a very good chance that I'll be an early adopter of the next full frame model Sony releases as an A850/A900 replacement, too.

Another way to look at it is that cameras in that first production run are probably going to be inspected closer for issues. For example, My Sony A700 has not had any problems at all. Of course, I have updated it's firmware as it's come out. But, I did that for feature enhancements versus bug fixes.

But, the opposite can occur, as sometimes first production runs do have issues that are not discovered until later that may require a trip back to the manufacturer. Look at the Nikon D70 as one example of that, where it ended up having some electrical issues causing a symptom that became to be known as BGLOD (Blinking Green Light of Death).

We've seen similar issues with other camera models from a variety of manufacturers, where they ended up having issues that were not discovered in testing. Sometimes the issues show up earlier, sometimes they may not cause problems until many months later; and there's really no way a manufacturer can test for all potential issues.

The well known Sony sensor debacle is an example of a major problem causing problems with lots of cameras later, when sensors quit working (sometimes years later), with humid environments causing accelerated failure rates, resulting in the recall of many thousands of camera models with the issue from Sony, Canon, Nikon, Pentax, Casio, etc.

There are pros and cons to any approach. But, one way to look at it is that you'll enjoy the benefits a newer camera with more advanced features if you're an earlier adopter.

Of course, whether or not you really need those advancements is another question entirely, as my older cameras can still take good photos. Heck, my wife even uses an old Nikon Coolpix 950 that I still have from time to time, and the photos it takes are just fine for her needs (even though it's only a 2 Megapixel camera model). ;-)

jack55 May 23, 2012 2:43 PM

Here is my way of looking at it. You don't miss what you don't have yet, no matter how good it is. Like the D3 is still one of the best camera's out there regardless what has come out since then.... D300s, D700 and especially DX series ones. The D4 is better, sure, but not THAT much better. So, I'll get the D4 after it's been out a year or so and it will also cost less.

Regardless what camera you have, new or older, the principals/rules are the same, composition, lighting and knowing how to use the current gear. That has been the same for decades.

Now Jim, I'm like you with computer's & cell phones... gotta have the latest and greatest ASAP... but even then still wait three months or so before getting one.

kazuya May 23, 2012 3:30 PM

its not just camera makers that do it, look at sony with playstations, apple with iphone, ipad, as far back as i can remember just about any eagerly awaited product by any company theres allways a supply shortage at first.
what you appear to be saying is that nobody can have one untill theres enough to go around, and that will never happen.

zig-123 May 24, 2012 6:17 AM

Jack, I have to agree with your approach, the early adopters can get the bugs out of the new models coming out as well as deal with the depreciation of brand new equipment.

My preference is to wait until the price has settled and the bugs fixed. And as you mentioned, it's a great time to pick up preowned Nikon camera bodies that, to me, were cost prohibitive at time of release.

Zig

Franko170 May 24, 2012 3:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jack55 (Post 1302654)
I HATE:mad: Nikon's practice of putting a camera on the market when they aren't ready! I know of several that have been waiting for their D800 for over 6 weeks now. I absolutely won't by a new Nikon for that reason for at least 6-12 months for that reason and time for them to work out the bugs (firmware).

NOW is the time to buy the former greats, D700, D3 as those folks are needing $$$ for the new stuff. Which I just did yesterday. Got a great deal on a low shutter count, like new D3. :D

An acquaintance of mine picked up a D800 almost a month ago, but checked with a half dozen sources before he found one that he could drive to in about a half hour and pick it up (along with a nikkor 24-70 2.8 lens).

JimC May 24, 2012 6:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jack55 (Post 1302814)
...Now Jim, I'm like you with computer's & cell phones... gotta have the latest and greatest ASAP... but even then still wait three months or so before getting one.

I'm the opposite with computer stuff.

The last 4 or 5 computers I've bought (several desktops and more than one laptop) have all been purchased in refurbished condition from Dell Outlet, always waiting for a coupon code for more off (usually around 20% off the already discounted refurbished price).

You can get on the Dell Outlet mailing lists here (so that you'll get e-mails when they have coupon codes for more off on refurbished models), and I'd sign up for both the Dell Home and Business mailing lists so that you're notified of any coupon codes for both (and you can buy from the business side for personal use, too):

http://www.dell.com/content/topics/s...=us&l=en&s=dfo

You can't build them for what you can get them that way for, even using cheapo parts, and if you're not buying the "latest and greatest" model, you can save a lot, while still getting most of the performance you'd get with new machine. ;-)

For example, if you wait on a coupon code (and they have them around once/month for 20% off on refurbs), you can pick up something like a Dell XPS 8300 with a Core i7 2600, 8GB of DDR3 (and you can add more yourself for very little money), dedicated video card (various models starting from an ATI 6450 or Nvidia GT 620, up to an AMD HD 6870 or Nvidia GTX 560Ti, depending on the way a specific refurb listing is equipped), 1TB or larger drive, Wireless N card, 64 Bit Win 7, DVD Writer, and more for around $600, including a 1 year on site warranty. Then add to it as desired (another drive, more ram, etc., using parts from newegg.com or similar vendors. Also note that the PSU in the XPS 8300 has dual 6 pin connectors and will handle video cards drawing up to 225 Watts (unusual for a 460 Watt PSU, meaning a lot of higher end cards will work in it).

You could pick up a Core i5 2xxx XPS 8300 model equipped about the same way for closer to $400 after a coupon code if you're on a tighter budget and don't want to splurge on a Core i7 2600. The Core i5 based models are a "steal" if you wait for coupon codes to take more off of the already discounted prices on refurbished machines.

It's hard to justify spending more on a newer box at prices that low, or building one yourself (as once you factor in the case, psu, motherboard, cpu, operating system, drives, video card, memory, etc, you'd be spending more, even using low end parts. Basically, you could get around 80% of the performance of a higher end custom build for around half the cost.

jack55 May 24, 2012 8:26 PM

I build and repair computers. Have one desktop and 3 notebooks.
http://1-4u-computer-graphics.com/Antec900.htm
I can build them much cheaper than you can buy them. Notebooks, I usually wait until the first wave is gone, about 6 months and then get one.

JimC May 25, 2012 9:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jack55 (Post 1303064)
I build and repair computers. Have one desktop and 3 notebooks.
http://1-4u-computer-graphics.com/Antec900.htm
I can build them much cheaper than you can buy them.

I dunno about that. Try pricing out the parts for something like a box with a Core i7 2600 in it and see what you get.

The Motherboard and CPU alone are going to run you around $400, even going with a cheaper MB. Add Win 7 in, and you're at closer to $500 , not even counting the memory, drives, card reader, video card, case and PSU.

Dell has some refurb XPS 8300 boxes right now for $659 (before any coupon codes) with a Core i7 2600, dual 500GB drives in a RAID 0 config, 8GB of 1333mhz DDR3, HD 6450 video card, case with a 460 Watt PSU with dual 6 pin connectors able to handle video cards drawing up to 225 Watts (and they sold them with Nvidia GTX 560Ti and Radeon HD 6870 cards in them), 64 bit Win 7 Home Premium, and a 1 year warranty with in home service.

You'll see a listing like that in this screen capture I just made:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4536228/Dell...t_May25_1.jpeg

They have 20% off coupon codes on the refurbs around once/month. So, a box listed for $659 like that would only cost you around $529 after the coupon code. That's the way I always buy them (waiting for a coupon code for more off, since they have them on a regular basis).

Try putting together a box like that and see what the parts cost you. Chances are, you'd be after over $529 by the time you bought a Motherboard, Core i7 2600 CPU, Win 7 and video card (even going with the cheapest MB and HD 6450 you could find), and you'd still need a case, PSU, memory, card reader and drives. If you don't like Dell's memory replace it, as memory is cheap anymore. ;-)

They have some listed with an HD 6870 for a little more (I see one for $729 right this minute, which would only cost you about $584 after a 20% off coupon code). Try pricing in a card like that HD 6870 after buying a case, motherboard, psu, Core i7 2600, 64 Bit Windows 7, drives, etc, and try to build one for $584. :-)

Chances are, you'd be at around $584 for the CPU, Motherboard and Video Card alone, and you'd still have to buy Windows, Drives, Case, PSU, RAM, etc..

Sure, you can build a faster box yourself (at a higher cost), so you'd have overclocking, PSU supporting even better video cards, more drive bays, better ventilation, etc.

I used to build all of my own systems. But, I figured out a while back that it's easier and cheaper for my needs to go with the refurbs (making sure to wait for a coupon code, since they have them often), then upgrade more often as needed.

I've bought multiple desktops and notebooks that way from them (refurbished using coupon codes for even more off), and they've all arrived in like new condition working just fine.

Heck, even the refurb I mentioned in this post is still working fine (purchased from Dell Outlet in 2004):

http://forums.steves-digicams.com/ge...tml#post190284

I just don't use it for much anymore, since I've bought multiple machines since then that are faster. Heck, the next box I bought as a replacement had a Core 2 Quad (Q6600), dual SATA drives, card reader, Windows and more for $398 after a coupon code, and that was 4 years ago in May 2008 when the parts would have cost you a lot more for a box like that. That one did have a weak PSU in it (350 watt). So, I just replaced it with one from newegg.com (they use standard ATX PSUs).

I bought a slower but similar desktop as a spare a couple of years back for only $235 delivered with a slower AMD Athlon X2 240 in it, 4GB of memory, 64 bit Win 7 Home Premium, dual SATA drives and DVD Writer using a coupon code for more off when I spotted one like at a good price in their refurbs list.

If you don't need the fastest box around (since you can't OC a box with a Dell BIOS), I've found that you just can't build one for what you can get a Dell refurb for after coupon codes if you're a good shopper. Then, just upgrade it yourself (memory, drives, video card, etc.).

Quote:

Notebooks, I usually wait until the first wave is gone, about 6 months and then get one.
I do the same thing with them (buy them refurbished from Dell Outlet, waiting until they have a coupon code for more off the already discounted refurb prices).

For example, I bought a refurbished Dell Inspiron 1720 in December 2007 from Dell OUtlet (using a coupon code for more off the normal refurb prices). It has a Core 2 Duo in it with a smaller 120GB Drive. My wife has used it almost every day since then and it's still working just fine (and the original battery still holds it's charge, too). It had Vista on it, but I set it up with Linux for her instead.

Heck, last year I bought a little Inspiron 11Z from Dell Outlet with a 1366x768 WLED backlit display, 160GB Drive, 2GB memory (single SODIMM but you can replace it with a 4GB if desired), HD 4500 integrated graphics and 64 Bit Win 7 Home Premium (not the starter edition some netbooks ship with) for $153.22 delivered (including tax and shipping), after a coupon code for more off.

I was using a little Eee PC 900 16G that the SSD failed in, plus I had cracked it's display. So, I went shopping at Dell Outlet when I got an e-mail with the latest coupon codes in it and bought that little 11Z. It's faster with better graphics and it works just fine for what I use a netbook for (mostly keeping up with the forums if I'm going on short trips), and I like it's slightly larger display (the Eee PC was a pain since it's display was only 1024x600).

You can get on the mailing list for Dell Outlet coupon codes here (and I'd sign up for both the Business and Home Side).

http://www.dell.com/content/topics/s...=us&l=en&s=dfo

You can also find them at Dell Outlet's twitter page here:

http://www.twitter.com/delloutlet

Right this minute, the business side has 15% off refurbished Latitude and Vostro laptops and 20% off the Precision models. Here are some crops from the last e-mail I got on May 22 (and the coupon codes expire May 28)

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4536228/Dell_Outlet_lat2.jpeg

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4536228/business_coupons2.jpeg

JimC May 25, 2012 9:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimC (Post 1303124)
Heck, last year I bought a little Inspiron 11Z from Dell Outlet with a 1366x768 WLED backlit display, 160GB Drive, 2GB memory (single SODIMM but you can replace it with a 4GB if desired), HD 4500 integrated graphics and 64 Bit Win 7 Home Premium (not the starter edition some netbooks ship with) for $153.22 delivered (including tax and shipping), after a coupon code for more off.

BTW, I just happen to have a screen capture I made of that one when I buying it, so I could show others how to find a good deal there. ;-)

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4536228/dell_netbook6.png

Even without the coupon code, it was listed at a good price (you have to browse the listings often to find the best bargains). It's plenty fast enough for what I use a netbook for (just browsing forums when on short trips for the most part). I've got it setup in a multi-boot config with Win 7, Kubuntu 12.04 LTS and Mepis 11 on it right this minute.

jack55 May 25, 2012 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimC (Post 1303124)
I dunno about that. Try pricing out the parts for something like a box with a Core i7 2600 in it and see what you get.

A lot of info there. You put some time and thoughts into that. Thanks!

I live not too far from Microsoft headquarters in Redmond, WA and have a couple friends that work there and I get Microsoft discounts, at cost, for parts, so I can get them pretty reasonable. My last build was a year ago and once you build one, it's easy to upgrade as new stuff comes out. I also have friends that get good discounts at the Boeing computer headquarters too. Yep, Boeing is close to me too.

If I were to buy another notebook, I may well try it your way... because I tend to walk into Best Buy to get my notebooks if I don't get one from my Microsoft / Boeing buddies.

JimC May 25, 2012 10:55 AM

Best Buy, huh?

They own http://www.cowboom.com that you may want to browse through, too. On the surface, my guess is that they're using it to get rid of returns or machines that are more trouble to troubleshoot and return to the buyer in a timely manner when they have extended warranties on them. So, I think they just make sure the hardware is working after replacing any obviously bad parts, and resell them at a [sometimes very steep] discount.

Sometimes they have some good deals on laptops. But, lately, I've been seeing higher prices (for the buy it now type prices, but they also do auctions on that site, where you'll likely get a better price).

You can get on their mailing list and they'll send you better deals on a regular basis on some stuff (tablets, laptops, etc.) via e-mail (they have "deals of the day" on some items). Most of the laptops and desktops come without an OS on them (my guess is that they probably just zero fill the drives). But, if that's not a big deal to you, then it's another place to browse for bargains (and again, some of their recent pricing has been a bit higher than they used to sell gear for).

jack55 May 25, 2012 1:53 PM

I like Best Buy... usually wait for deals... will check what your tips.
Just this year alone, I bought a Samsung 60" Plasma 3D TV, (was $1,999, got it for $999) surround sound system, (was $899, got it for $299) a notebook, and other stuff from Best Buy. Camera gear, I tend to buy my stuff from B&H. Where do you get your camera gear?

JimC May 25, 2012 2:25 PM

The dealer with the best price on what I'm looking for. ;-)

I'll buy from ebay vendors if I have to, or even Ritz/Wolf camera if they get supply of a new camera model sooner than another vendor (and sometimes, they do).

For used gear, I favor http://www.keh.com as a first choice. But, I've also bought from http://www.cameta.com and http://www.bhphotovideo.com. These vendors all have good grading practices on used gear. Amazon is also a good choice.

I'd even buy from http://www.adorama.com as a last resort.

For example, I bought my Minolta 100mm f/2 AF lens from them. But, the buying experience left something to be desired, plus I'd trust the gradings from vendors like keh.com or bhphotovideo.com more on used gear.

For example, the inventory system used by adorama still had a listing for that lens after I'd ordered it, and I didn't know if I'd actually bought it or not until I finally got e-mails confirming that I got the lens after asking them about it (and it was still listed for purchase on their web site at that time, too).

I've seen complaints from other members here about their used department, too.

So, I'll only use adorama.com as a last resort, even though they're a reputable vendor in most areas (I'd try to find what I need from Amazon, B&H, Cameta Camera, Ritz/Wolf and reputable Ebay vendors first -- only buying from Adorama if they're the only vendor that has what I want at a good price). They're probably a good choice for new gear. But, I would personally avoid their used department for buying or selling.

jack55 May 25, 2012 2:50 PM

Thanks Jim. I've bought a LOT of gear over the years since the 70's from B&H.
Usually have what I want, good prices and never had one problem.


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