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Old Aug 6, 2007, 11:50 AM   #11
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just a point on raw

in jpg u cannot change exposure and white ballance in editing, if u shot in raw u can and then save as a jpg still keeping raw incase u want to make more changes

recently i shot a group photo inside a church and because of mix of lighting inside i shot raw and then adjusted the white balance on pc........safest way of doing what was a one off shoot

Gary
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Old Aug 6, 2007, 12:25 PM   #12
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Probably wise! RAW seems to be a touchy subject and like religion / politics a matter of belief.
It obviously is a touchy subject as you say jorgen, but the ideatheuse of RAW has nothing to do with sharpening settings is misleading if you go by the quote you give. It has everything to do with sharpening and especially of when and how the image is sharpened.

Applying sharpening 'in camera' is a once only event, you don't get another chance becauseunless you get it righta secondattempt at sharpening in postprocessingwill start to degrade the image. As you will know, sharpening should be applied depending on the size of image you want, and the application. So for publicationa far higherlevel of sharpening is needed/possible than for a small print of the family holiday, and a different level again is needed for large prints. So in camera sharpening is fine if you only ever expect to make one type picture. It would begood for the holiday 5x7's, or a pro who knowshis sports picture will only be used once on the back page. But how many people 'know' the use or size their pictures will need to be reproduced as in the future? Not many. Hence the fairly wide acceptance that sharpening is turned down in thecamera, and only applied at an appropriate level each time the image is used in different applications. So it is part of the work flow.

Where RAW comes in is that it comes out of the camera completely unsharpened, despite any camera sharpness settings, and therefore it is able to take as much or as little sharpening as is needed for the various possibilities the picture may have, now and in the future, and via much more sophisticated software than used in cameras. Obviously this does indeed add some extra work flow, but unless you are printing every single picture you take, then it isn't much.

The idea that it takes 'to much time' is a weird thought to me. I mean,hasthe time it used to take taking a film to be processed, or the time spent in the darkroom, suddenly disappeared andno longer available? Hundreds of RAW files can be processed in a fraction ofthe darkroomtime that used to bean everydaypart of photography.And processing a RAW file and adding some sharpening, whether using an automatic softwaresetting or 'manually', could be seen as a way of slowing down, reflecting on the image,and ensuring quality comes before quantity.



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Old Aug 6, 2007, 1:46 PM   #13
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To reanimator: you can easily adjust exposure up or down in PhotoShop - I do it all the time. Use the layer blend feature and set the percentage.

I agree that the camera can get the white balance wrong, so if one is doing photo in mixed light, it might be wise to use RAW. So far I have not had such problems, not even with my e-300. I have corrected white balance for other people in PhotoShop so it can (at least sometimes) be done.

To OCD:
I agree fully on sharpening, but would say it as short as this: don't ever sharpen in the camera (unless you are forced to), as you can't reverse the process. Specifically, photos for the web should generally never be sharpened.

Re RAW: you are of course welcome to spend your time and resources any way you like.

For the rest of you: this part of photo is engineering and engineering is about conserving time and resources. Don't believe everything, you read on the Internet (including what I write): try it out and judge for yourself.

I remember reading messages from two experienced photographers, who had both Olympus and Canon: they used RAW for Canon, but not for Olympus.

Jorgen
http://jorgen.photoblog.com

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Old Aug 6, 2007, 2:58 PM   #14
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jorgen wrote:
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To reanimator: you can easily adjust exposure up or down in PhotoShop - I do it all the time. Use the layer blend feature and set the percentage.

I agree that the camera can get the white balance wrong, so if one is doing photo in mixed light, it might be wise to use RAW. So far I have not had such problems, not even with my e-300. I have corrected white balance for other people in PhotoShop so it can (at least sometimes) be done.

i know u can adjust exposure with blend layers etc i do it all the time, blending shots with exposure for highlights and shadows etc

open a raw file in photoshop and see all the stuff u can do to it

a raw file contains all the raw data that makes up a compressed jpg.....so its more flexible

most of my work is stitching shots together to make wide panoramics and due to file size when editing its not practicle for me to shoot them in raw so i use highest jpegs.....but do use raw for normal shots when needed

Gary


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Old Aug 7, 2007, 12:47 AM   #15
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I know I can do all that stuff with RAW; the point is, I don't want to. Maybe it is more difficult to shoot in jpeg because there are some things you do not get a 2nd chance at, but there are still a lot of things that can be adjusted if you get a real keeper that just needs a little work.

And sharpness can still be adjusted with a jpeg even if you had the sharpness set to +1. If you use highly cropped photos, you will need add'l sharpening. I bet 50% of the stuff I shoot is at 200mm and then cropped a lot, sometimes to 100%.

Resize to 800x600, sharpen, voila'.


By the way, not only were the subjects moving in all these pictures, but they were taken from a small (22 ft) boat in San Digo harbor which I was driving at the time (albeit, rather slowly at times).










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Old Aug 16, 2007, 5:58 PM   #16
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trooplewis wrote:
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Nice to know that others shoot jpeg as well. RAW just takes too long, and a big learning curve as well.



Yes it is! I used to keep quiet aboutbeing jpeg user because of people trying to "enlighten me" to something I don't feel I need.

I'm in a similar business to Rriley and know what he means but I'm sure that like me Rriley likes to take his cameras out for the sheer enjoymentof capturingtop quality photos.

As an old film camera man I try and get shots composed as much as pos. in the camera. I don't like to sit at the computer and "Drop" a new sky or do too much engineering other than perhaps a touch of maybe light, sharpening and cropping. To 'me,' too much in computer work feels phony. JPEG suits me fine and I'd put my landscape work up against an engineered shot any time.

Nice pics Trooper, I like to photo sailboat racing so I know how much fun it is to shoot whilst bobbing about on water.
How did you get so close? I was at a race in Everett Washington and we got too close (I guess) to the Carrier Nimetz and a guy with a fast boat ....and a 50cal. asked me to sailaway. It didn't seem the time to point out that sailers have right of way over power...!


There's a time and place for all camera work, just so long as you enjoy what you do.



I don't mean to be pedantic here, I was just browsing through an Olympus site and came across this page:
http://www.olympus-global.com/en/cor...ex02.cfm?id=tx



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Old Aug 17, 2007, 10:23 PM   #17
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Which guys are you talking about? These guys?


The above picture is in San Diego Bay just before I was boarded by the Coast Guard for a 'routine' safety compliance check just after I had taken some photos of the Navy Seal Team practicing. Nice guys, considering they are 21 year old kids with a machine gun

Or these guys? The guy inside was staring right at me.




They were running interference for this guy (USS Chancellorsville). I was about 200 yards away and using my 50-200 les.



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Old Aug 21, 2007, 1:47 PM   #18
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"a 'routine' safety compliance check" Of course it was...!

Yep they're the ones, although I think they where more interested in checking out the attractive lady with you.
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Old Aug 21, 2007, 5:16 PM   #19
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hitkurkowski,

did you ever get your question answered? i have an E500 and i have it set on the hardest setting which is +2, but i shoot alot of sports, i have an E1 i updated the firmware and now i can set it to +5, i guess it all depends on what you are going to shoot. the best thing i could say is put your camera on a tripod and take the same picture each time and just change the sharpness setting. and see if you can really tell the difference. good luck, john
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Old Aug 25, 2007, 5:29 AM   #20
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airbrushjohn wrote:
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hitkurkowski,

did you ever get your question answered? i have an E500 and i have it set on the hardest setting which is +2, but i shoot alot of sports, i have an E1 i updated the firmware and now i can set it to +5, i guess it all depends on what you are going to shoot. the best thing i could say is put your camera on a tripod and take the same picture each time and just change the sharpness setting. and see if you can really tell the difference. good luck, john
Hi, John

I've learned a lot but concluded that I need to do what you suggested - I plan to do that this weekend.

When I get a new camera one of thefirst things I do isshoot the Kodak gray-scale card at various exposures to zero in on any ideosyncracies of the camera's exposure system. (That's howI determined that in outdoor lighting conditions the E-500 is best with the contrast turned down and then adjusted in photos with PShop afterwards.) I just need to do the same sort of testing for the sharpness.

Thanks for your help!

Ted
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