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Old Nov 6, 2007, 7:56 PM   #1
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Just want to know how everyone feels about having clean high ISO files and what would you be happy with in your next camera ? Reviews of the E3/L10 final production cameras should show us how good the new NMOS Pana sensors are and how well they fare against the current APS-C sensors. from what I can tell the new Sony sensor in the A700/D300 looks very good.

Personally, for a OlyPanaLeica I'd at least like a very good ISO800 and 1600, anything more than 1600 would be a bonus for me.

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Old Nov 7, 2007, 1:14 AM   #2
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Of course we always want more, and Nikon has recently pushed the boundary with ISO5000, but to think what would have happened with film if digital hasn't taken off is we would have ISO3200 film, and ISO1600 would be a lot cleaner.

I think to expect a cleaner image is not unreasonable, but there are other ways to improve the sensitivity of sensors, like Kodak's new colour pattern for sensors that improves sensitivity.

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Old Nov 7, 2007, 10:59 AM   #3
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Mikefellh wrote:
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Of course we always want more, and Nikon has recently pushed the boundary with ISO5000, but to think what would have happened with film if digital hasn't taken off is we would have ISO3200 film, and ISO1600 would be a lot cleaner
Higher than that. The Nikon D3 has ISO 200 - 6400, with "boost" modes allowing ISO 100- ISO 25,600.

The Nikon D300 has ISO 200 - 3200, with "boost" modes allowing ISO 100 to ISO 6400

The Sony DSLR-A700 has ISO 200 - 3200, with "expanded" modes allowing ISO 100- ISO 6400 (same as the D300).

These 3 models (Nikon D3, Nikon D300, and Sony DSLR-A700) all allow ISO speed settings in 1/3 stop increments (through ISO 6400 with the D300 and A700, and through ISO 25,600 with the D3).

Some of the Canon models alllow ISO 6400 now, too. Check out the Sports and Action Forum here for some of JohnG's shots using ISO 6400 for indoor sports with a Mk III for examples. He was able to take many of the shots using ISO 6400 with an F/2.8 zoom, where a brighter prime would normally be required using ISO 3200.

But, actual sensitivity also comes into the equation. I've already seen one very recent test comparing a lot of images (controlled conditions) from the new Nikon D300 and Sony DSLR-A700, where the Sony appears to have around a 1 stop advantage in sensitivity compared to the D300 at higher ISO speeds.

IOW, the Sony A700 was getting shutter speeds *twice* as fast for the same exposure at ISO 3200 and 6400 as the Nikon D300 was getting for the identical subjects, lighting and aperture settings using those ISO speeds.

So, take any ISO speed comparisons with a grain of salt until you see more controlled conditions testing showing any sensitivity differences between models (set ISO speeds are not always accurate). ;-)

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Old Nov 7, 2007, 11:59 AM   #4
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HarjTT wrote:
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Just want to know how everyone feels about having clean high ISO files and what would you be happy with in your next camera ? Reviews of the E3/L10 final production cameras should show us how good the new NMOS Pana sensors are and how well they fare against the current APS-C sensors. from what I can tell the new Sony sensor in the A700/D300 looks very good.
It's OK (I recently bought a Sony A700). It will do ISO 3200 with the right exposure for 8x10's. ISO 6400 is a little "iffy" from my point of view (Sony is using a bit too much noise reduction by default with this model at anything over about ISO 1600, and the noise reduction algorithms are not the best, so shoot raw for best results).

The Nikon D3 is the model to beat right now if you want higher ISO speeds. I applaud Nikon for limiting it to 12MP in a 35mm size sensor (versus joining the Megapixel race with this model). It's sweet at higher ISO speeds from what I've seen. If I had the budget, and Nikon wasn't encrypting some of the metadata in their raw files (I now boycott Nikon products because of this tactic), I'd probably buy one.

From my perspective, higher ISO speeds are *very* important. I probably take around half of my shots at ISO 1600 (and have for a long time now with a Konica Minolta 5D). The A700's APS-C sensor is not a huge jump from the 6MP Sony sensor from a noise perspective. But, every little bit helps if you like existing light photos.


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Old Nov 7, 2007, 12:49 PM   #5
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hey Harj
i really dont think the E3 cuts it above 800iso, but taking into account equivelance that would see it 2 stops from 135 (3,200iso), thats not unfair. For my needs, being that interiors tend to be rather static, having both iso800 workable and 5 stops of IS makes a tempting combination.

But the question i need to ask myself is how image quality compares with the much cheaper E510, and really I dont see a huge difference. For instance noise appears to be just as it is in 410/510. From sample images to hand I made the following analysis:
Open PhotoShop, Noise Ninja, click reset/ click Profile-Image/read & record noise index

E3 iso 3200 34 Nippon Maru from DC Watch
E3 iso1600 23 ""
E3 iso 800 20 ""

E3 iso1600 31 glasses in a bar
E3 iso 800 32 acrobats

L10 iso 1600 22 Nippon Maru from DC Watch
L10 iso 800 17 ""

E-410 iso1600 NR OFF 35
E-410 iso1600 NR NORMAL 21
E-410 iso800 NR? 17

40D iso1600 35 steves reviews studio shot

Steves does not have any representative iso studio (or otherwise) images from 410/510

You can see the similaritys given NR ON/OFF Normal etc etc for the E cameras, and see the similarity with L10 figures for same.

That said, there appears to be more robust metering, probably equating to more DR in jpeg.

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Old Nov 7, 2007, 2:38 PM   #6
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JimC wrote:
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Higher than that. The Nikon D3 has ISO 200 - 6400, with "boost" modes allowing ISO 100- ISO 25,600.
When I commented on the new Nikon being able to do ISO5000, it had to do with decent quality ISO...heck, if you wanted to you can do ISO10,000 with the E-500, but it's not very good quality.

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Old Nov 7, 2007, 2:42 PM   #7
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That's all a matter of perspective. ;-) I've been pretty impressed with the ISO 6400 images I've seen from the D3.

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Old Nov 7, 2007, 3:45 PM   #8
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JimC wrote:
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That's all a matter of perspective. ;-) I've been pretty impressed with the ISO 6400 images I've seen from the D3.

ISO 6400 on the Canon 1dmkIII is fairly impressive as well:







Definitely usable for 8x10 prints. The other thing to note on the newer cameras is having a TRUE ISO 3200 (not boost) and the incremental steps between 1600 and 3200. ISO 2000 has been a real God send for me.



for what I do, having an extra 1/3 or 2/3 stops can make a HUGE difference (without having to use the boost to 3200 that was necessary on older generations):




So I think better high ISO is good for a LOT of people. I'm glad to see it getting emphasis in every manufacturer's newest releases.
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Old Nov 7, 2007, 6:23 PM   #9
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Hi John

Thanks for posting the shots, and I got to say very nice indeed. From what I've seen from the new Canon, Sony and Nikon D3 sensors they've really pushed the envelope regards useable high ISO. For the APS-C sensors I'm wondering what new tech Sony and Canon have developed to get be able to get such an improvement in the last 12months or so and whether Panasonic has been able to push the the 4/3 NMOS sensors to the same degree for the E3? From the various samples that I've seen from the E3, upto ISO1250 is pretty good but I'm waiting to see the reviews of what production E3 cam's can do, esp with the 35-100F2 and 14-35F2 zooms.

Here's a link to an e3+ 35-100F2, taken at [email protected]/160s at 54mm and ISO1600. What do you think of the noise and IQ and how it compares to the latest Sony/Nikon/Canon?

http://masterchong.com/v2/choosing/o...0-cropped.html









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Harj

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Old Nov 7, 2007, 7:30 PM   #10
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I'd say that looks to be a good 1 to 1 1/3 stop better than prior generations.

I think a usable ISO 1600 is the real benchmark for most shooters. I think there are few of us that regularly use/need ISO 3200/6400 for prints.

All in all I think it goes towards the need to improve on the QUALITY of pixels and stop obsessing over the QUANTITY of them. So better high ISO, better dynamic range, etc are welcome changes from the latest generations in all camps.

But on the APS-C front I've seen conflicting results regarding the new Canon 40d. Some reports say high iso performance is worse than the 30d some say it's the same and some say it's better. I think everyone's watching to see how the new Nikons do - specifically the D300 since it's a little more friendly with regards to price. And if the E3 can get usable 1600 / 3200I think that will be a very good goal.
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