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Old Feb 21, 2008, 9:33 PM   #11
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zig-123 wrote:
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They also mention that Oly lenses are some of the finest available...did I mention that they're really expensive?
OK - I decided to get some numbers together to put that cow-plop idea to rest, because it is a lie and it really irritates me. So I'm glad you mentioned it.

Here is a comparison of pro-level lenses from Oly, Canon, and Nikon (prices in US$ from B&H):

Oly: 300mm f/2.8 ED [600mm equiv.] - $5,900
Canon: EF 600mm f/4.0L IS Image Stabilizer - $7,000 (and f/4!)
Nikon: AF-S Nikkor 600mm f/4D ED-IF II Autofocus Lens - $8,500 (and f/4!)

Oly: 90-250mm f/2.8 ED [180 - 500mm equiv.] - $5,400
Canon: nada
Nikon: Zoom Nikkor 200-400mm f/4 G-AFS ED-IF VR (Vibration Reduction) - $5,000 (f/4 plus a much smaller zoom range!)

Oly: 150mm f/2.0 EP [300mm equiv.] - $2,200
Canon: EF 300mm f/2.8L IS Image Stabilizer - $3,900 (and f/2.8!)
Nikon: AF-S Nikkor 300mm f/2.8G AF-S ED-IF VR (Vibration Reduction) - $4,300 (and f/2.8!)


Oly: 35-100mm f/2.0 ED [70 - 200mm equiv.] - $2,200
Canon: EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS - $1,700 (and f/2.8
Nikon: AF VR Zoom Nikkor 70-200mm f/2.8D G-AFS ED-IF Autofocus Lens (Vibration Reduction) - $1,600 but f/2.8

Oly: 7-14mm f/4.0 ED [14 - 28mm equiv.] - $1,600
Canon: NO ZOOM; Super Wide Angle EF 14mm f/2.8L - $2,000
Nikon: AF-S Zoom Nikkor 14-24mm f/2.8G ED AF - $1,600 (faster, but a smaller zoom range for the same price)

So can we agree (in this forum, at least) to put thisabsurd idea about Oly lenses being expensive or overpriced, to rest? If someone brings it up again, feel free to quote me (grin).

Ted

PS: it's true that if you look at the Nikon cameras that use the APS-C sensor size rather than the FF cameras, the prices for their lenses come down somewhat because the 35mm-equivalent focal length is lower, but my point doesn't change...

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Old Feb 21, 2008, 11:20 PM   #12
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Actually the Olympus menus have been rated the easiest to use compared to other cameras. I know as a teaching assistant at photography workshops when trying to find something on Canikon cameras it takes me a few minutes (not to mention trying to figure out how to operate the interface)...the first time I got an Olympus camera it was just so easy to operate it in the store BEFORE I had read the manual.

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Old Feb 24, 2008, 8:55 AM   #13
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Mikefellh wrote:
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Actually the Olympus menus have been rated the easiest to use compared to other cameras. I know as a teaching assistant at photography workshops when trying to find something on Canikon cameras it takes me a few minutes (not to mention trying to figure out how to operate the interface)...the first time I got an Olympus camera it was just so easy to operate it in the store BEFORE I had read the manual.

I think Zig is particularly looking at the DPReview, which indeed was luke-warm about the E3 and whined about the menu system. To some extent I think menu systems are something you tend to learn for a particular manufacturer and after that the menu systems from other manufacturers seem confusing, when in fact they are just different. Since I had some years of experience with an Oly E20 and then E500, the E3 menus seem natural to me[grin].

But to me the real point with the E3 menu system is that once you customizethe E3's numerous default settings you rarely need to go back to menus, because of the Super Control Panel which allows you to rapidly changethe settings you would want to modify on a day-to-day basis.

And anyway,my response above should make clear that I strongly believe Herb Keppler was right - it's all about the glass not the camera body.I'm willing to believe that the pro-level glass from Nikon and Canon is as good as Oly's or Leica's (since it's generally slower glass it ought to be) but the Canikon glass seems a lot more expensive, beyond simply the incrementyou'd expect for adding in-lens IS.

Ted

PS: It should be noted that the line Zig quoted about the Oly glass being limited in selection and expensive, came from the DPReview of the Oly E1 which was written more thanfour years ago.

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Old Feb 24, 2008, 10:23 AM   #14
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Thanks Ted and Mike for your responses.

Ted, you're right, I thought complaints that the reviewer had relative to the menu were a bit lame. Since I don't have an E-3, I couldn't comment so I was hoping someone who has had an E-3 for a while now, would respond to that.

But, my thinking was, as you correctly pointed out, that once you get accustomed to the interface of a particular camera, it becomes quite easy to navigate-be it Nikon, Canon, Sony, or whoever. I just happen to like Olympus' menu system. As you mentioned, in any event, once you set your defaults to your particular style of shooting, your not going to continually go back (unless you just happen to like to fiddle). On top of that, the control panel (for the Olympus D-slrs) allows you to make changes for any given shot-should it be required very quickly and easily.

As for the lack of lenses and the costly price that I referred to, even though that was stateda long time ago, it issomething that seems to be consideredas fact today. When I read the "which camera should I buy" forum found on this site, that is very often mentioned as a reason to be concerned about anyOlympus (D-slr)camera purchase. If anyone took the time to investigate, they would quickly find a good selection of lenses at different price points to suit the needs of pros, as well as the budget minded.

And while you and Mike did not touch on the subject of button size and locations, (another reviewer complaint) I just thought that was a bit trivial, in that, once you get accustomed to the button placements, it becomes second nature.

I think , overall, those complaints are subjective and don't really add any value to the review. That's just my opinion since, before I dropped $1600bucks on a camera, I'd go and try it out, play with the menus, use the buttons, see how the camera felt in my hand.

Cameras should be judgedon performance, IQ, DR, IQ quality at High ISOs shutter lag, burst speed, AF performance, etc.

again my opinion only

Zig








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Old Feb 24, 2008, 4:45 PM   #15
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zig-123 wrote:
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Thanks Ted and Mike for your responses.

Ted, you're right, I thought complaints that the reviewer had relative to the menu were a bit lame. Since I don't have an E-3, I couldn't comment so I was hoping someone who has had an E-3 for a while now, would respond to that.

But, my thinking was, as you correctly pointed out, that once you get accustomed to the interface of a particular camera, it becomes quite easy to navigate-be it Nikon, Canon, Sony, or whoever. I just happen to like Olympus' menu system. As you mentioned, in any event, once you set your defaults to your particular style of shooting, your not going to continually go back (unless you just happen to like to fiddle). On top of that, the control panel (for the Olympus D-slrs) allows you to make changes for any given shot-should it be required very quickly and easily.

As for the lack of lenses and the costly price that I referred to, even though that was stateda long time ago, it issomething that seems to be consideredas fact today. When I read the "which camera should I buy" forum found on this site, that is very often mentioned as a reason to be concerned about anyOlympus (D-slr)camera purchase. If anyone took the time to investigate, they would quickly find a good selection of lenses at different price points to suit the needs of pros, as well as the budget minded.
Hi, Zig

I hope you didn't think I was being critical of your post, because I wasn't. I agree with you. For example, if people (myself included) will put up with the incomprehensible and counter-intuitive Photoshop menus, they're obviously willing to learn anything.

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And while you and Mike did not touch on the subject of button size and locations, (another reviewer complaint) I just thought that was a bit trivial, in that, once you get accustomed to the button placements, it becomes second nature.
'Dunno about Mike, but for me the button placement seemsfine. But you should know that at this point in my life I have a lot of activities that are a higher priority than the enjoyable activity of just going out and taking pictures. So whereas I do have decades of experience in photography and I am a competent photographerI have a lot less experience withdigital photography right now, compared to others. My current pictures are good as far as I'm concerned but they won't win any awards and if I posted one on DPReview I'd get hosed by the (minority of)ego-centric members of that forum. In that context I don't find that I need the detailed control of photos that others (including Andrzej) seem to need, nor all of its buttons. I didn't buy the E3 because I'm a pro photographer, but because I need itshigh-ISO performance and some of its other features plus I just like how it feels when I hold it and use it, and how fast (i.e. heavy) lenses balance with it. Although my E500 has been great, I bond with the E3 more.

Harj has more time to spend with the E3 than I do. He has expressed some heartburn with the E3's button layout but he's used his E1 a lot more than I've used my Oly DSLRs. It will be interesting to see how he feels about that aspect of the E3 after he spends more time with it.

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Cameras should be judgedon performance, IQ, DR, IQ quality at High ISOs shutter lag, burst speed, AF performance, etc.
And although the DPReview of the E3 has a wealth of impressive, objective technical measurements to substantiate their claim that it's not a leader in its class, DPReview has an Oly DSLR forum with a lot of apparently experienced photographer members who disagree. Perhaps they feel that the attributesyou mention are good enough that they don't want to switch tothe much heavier andmore expensive Canikon lenses...

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On top of that, the control panel (for the Olympus D-slrs) allows you to make changes for any given shot-should it be required very quickly and easily.
For the members of this forum who may be unfamiliar with the E3's Super Control Panel that is displayed on the rear LCD, I've attached an image of it below (shamelessly copied from the DPReview of the E3 [grin]). All of the controls displayed on that panel, are easily accessed and modified with the scroll arrowcontrols on the back of the E3. A very intuitive and fast control system.

Ted


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Old Feb 24, 2008, 5:02 PM   #16
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One more point I would make is this: If the Oly "Standard" lenses meet your needs (and they should for most photographers - they are excellent) then I would recommend the E510.

If you need or want the speed and durability of Oly's pro lenses, especially internal focusing/zoom (I'm suspicious of the long-term health of any lens whose front element moves in and out, even though I own several of them) I believe the E3 is a better companion for them. But that is a purely subjective opinion.

Ted
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Old Feb 24, 2008, 7:15 PM   #17
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Hi Zig..

Not sure if you did read the LL review of the E3 - but here's a quote from eth conclusion:

"The E3 has strengths in the areas of auto focus, implementation of live view, dust reduction, internal Image Stabilization, lens line-up, and environmental sealing. It produces great, accurate JPEG's right out of camera with even better quality possible in RAW mode. The ability to cancel the noise filtering completely can add a whole new dimension of image sharpness to your photos. And it's possible to assemble a smaller, lighter kit than competing systems offer. Its deficiencies are a clumsy, poorly implemented physical interface (although that is subjective on my part) and slightly higher noise at the top end of the ISO scale.
All in all, when you weigh the positives and the negatives, the E3 is a very strong candidate in the enthusiast / pro category. "
That to me - shows that the E3 ticks a lot a boxes (and the same applies to the E510) and thats from a working pro photographer:

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/re...ympus-E3.shtml

Cheers

Harj







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Old Feb 24, 2008, 8:24 PM   #18
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zig-123 wrote:
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And while you and Mike did not touch on the subject of button size and locations, (another reviewer complaint) I just thought that was a bit trivial, in that, once you get accustomed to the button placements, it becomes second nature.
I confess I can't comment specifically on the feel of the button size and location because I don't use an E-3 (I use an E-300, guess that's 100 times better than the E-3), but from the images they don't look unreasonable, and I guess I do like the location of the OK button because it's in the same location on my C-700, compared to it being off to the side as it is on my E-300.

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Old Feb 27, 2008, 11:14 PM   #19
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generally the buttons are in groups
3 at top left
4 in two pairs on top right
4 at bottom of LCD
3 at top rear
review and IS buttons separated at the rear

the buttons top left have the same crowns and define flash/mode/AF type
the buttons at top right in the top pair light/WB
and on the front pair e/v/iso, these buttons have different crowns for a different feel

the idea of a Super Control Panel works very well to reduce a complex control set to a logical order that is quick to find and use. Problem is, the control set is vast and complex, so it is daunting at first, but after some time you find you know where to look.

Probably next comes proficiency in using the buttons, sets like e/v and iso have a different feel, so you an find the button you want by the feel of its crown, and find the function you want by its location. In time it becomes more intuitive.

On reviews, its been a bit of a battle over at dp, but some elements of the review have changed due to pressure from members. The principle irk's remain though. Joinson claims limited DR (due to their lousy so called DR test) and highlight clipping, which for me just doesnt happen.

I cant see the logic where he can claim the metering shoots to the left further into the grey/black zone, and yet clips highlights. But for them the seed is sown, when people see 'clipped highlights' they immediately associate narrow DR performance.

The other thing he did was to make a nice long list of con's, adding "the competition" on the end. It seems every time he needs to suggest a beneift theres always a 'but' to go with it.

If you go over the 40D review you will see what an easy ride it gets. Although its DR is just 0.08 stops more than E3 it gets this padded out into a long list of 'pros'
  • Good tonal response, dynamic range extended compared to competition, EOS 30D[/*]
  • Highlight tone priority option delivers even more dynamic range with very little downside
    [/*]
while E3 takes a hit in 'cons'.
  • Highlight dynamic range not quite as good as competitors (better than other E-Series cameras):
    Some highlight clipping on bright days unless you reduce exposure[/*]
  • Very little resolution or dynamic range headroom in raw files [/*]
they also add to the 40D 'pros' indespensible items like
  • ISO sensitivity now permanently displayed on top LCD and viewfinder status bar[/*]
  • New warning screen if CF door opened during write (no more lost images)[/*]
  • Quieter mirror mechanism, very quiet in live view (3 silent shooting options) [/*]
  • Supports both EF and smaller, lighter EF-S 'digital' lenses [/*]
  • New AF-ON button brings consistency of control with EOS-1D series[/*]
And there is a habit of mentioning things twice in different ways, to advantage 40D 'pros' and disadvantage E3 'cons'. For much of their reviews, its quite ruthless and quite deliberate, and quite untrue

Riley
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Old Feb 28, 2008, 3:07 AM   #20
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I can't say I have read all the reviews, but those I have read fall into two main categories. Those that go out and take pictures with the E3 tend to like it very much, those that 'test' it in a faux science way don't like it so much.

The biggest review and foremost for many people will have been the scientific DPreview test. I think they try to be fair, but so many things are just wrong with it that the E3 had its arm tied behind it back before the contest began. One case in point. They used ACR in default mode to process the RAW files, and even Master will create better processed RAW files in 'default' mode than ACR. An example of their weird logic (besides not understanding that using something will acquaint you with where the buttons are) is the lack of understanding of having the SSWF function on startup, i.e.after you put a new lens on, not on power downbefore you take the lens off. So when do they think is the most important time to get rid of dust? This sort of nit picking permeates the whole review and throws a veil of ill founded 'opinion' overboth the good points and the bad points of the E3.

But I think the saddest bit of any review wasin Luminous Landscape, where the reviewer spoke forcefully about the need to be double jointed to access E3functionsbythe necessity to holddown the button and at the same time turn the control wheel. Alas, be clearly didn't get to the part of the manual that describes the Button Timer or the Super Control Panel........ but these perceived problemsare the things that stick in the minds of potential buyers.


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