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Old Mar 26, 2008, 10:53 AM   #11
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JohnG wrote:
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In any event - pro or non pro - a person should buy gear according to the requirements at hand - be they personal or professional requirements. Determine what the requirements are first then find the gear that best matches. It is not unlike buying a car - each of us has requirements and desires when we buy a car so we seek out the car that best matches those requirements. Same is true at all levels of photography. A pro and a non-pro can absolutely end up with the same gear because their requirments are virtually the same. However, there are also many instances where non Pros must buy different gear simply due to cost and return on investment (i.e. they cant cost justify spending $7000 on a lens because its not putting food on their table - instead they need to have the car fixed and pay utilities).


Exactly, one buys a car for the practical need and for the lifestyle. Same for the photogear. I suspect that the serious amateur buys Hi-end photo equipment (i.e. E3 and top pro glass) because it has style andquality, as well that it stands out of the grey mass of C/N users. When I am shooting with my E3/35-100 I get as much reactions as does my transformed HD bike!

So, the serious amateurs differs from the Pro's in the enjoyment they get from their equipment, even loving it. This makes it possible for them to create lovely pictures. They are artists. Pro's enjoy the commercial succes and the return on investment. They are buisiness people.

Now, I would say, all you serious amateur/artists like me, do not compare yourselfs with the Pro's. Let's stand out by our work, not by our revenue. Sure, you may have to work a job next to your art, so be it. Even if someons says your work is no art, if you like it, keep on making it (as Vincent van Gogh did). One day you might sell some, as I do on the village market, or even to people you know, that is makingthe difference.

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Old Mar 26, 2008, 11:18 AM   #12
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Terpentijn wrote:
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I suspect that the serious amateur buys Hi-end photo equipment (i.e. E3 and top pro glass) because it has style andquality, as well that it stands out of the grey mass of C/N users. When I am shooting with my E3/35-100 I get as much reactions as does my transformed HD bike!
I'd like to further segment the demographics here. The 'serious amateur' IMO buys the gear they need to best do the job at hand. Not so different from the pro. The job at hand may be different - but they buy what best does the job they need to do within the constraints (money, size) they have.

But there is another class - the class that buys expensive gear because 'thats what the experienced guys do' - but they dont know how to use it. There are plenty of this type of person in photography. In the canon camp these are the people that buy white lenses because it makes them look better. It doesn't improve their photography because they dont take the time to understand photography. They are more interested in image. If the picture is bad its because the gear was bad, etc...I saw a quote a while back in some forum that summarizes this group nicely... "a fool with a tool is still a fool".

I guess I dont equate a camera to a car in the sense you've made here - buying a camera for it's style. The camera is the tool that helps me make photographs. I'm not going to buy a camera or lens because of how it looks and wanting to be the same or different from another photographer. I'm going to buy a camera or lens because it is the best tool for the job I want to accomplish. So I guess in this sense the analogy to a car is poor. I guess maybe I would equate the camera gear more towards a carpenter's tools. Function being morer important than style. I would imagine most other artistic endevors would be similar - whether it's chisels, paintbrushes, whatever - I would think the artist chooses the gear that accomplishes their task in the highest quality they can afford regardless of how the brush, chisel or whatever looks to other people. I'm not sure I understand why a serious artist would choose a brush because 'that handle looks really cool'. Or did I misunderstand you?
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Old Mar 26, 2008, 11:43 AM   #13
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Terpentijn wrote:
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So, the serious amateurs differs from the Pro's in the enjoyment they get from their equipment, even loving it. This makes it possible for them to create lovely pictures. They are artists. Pro's enjoy the commercial succes and the return on investment. They are buisiness people.
You can't pigeonhole people like that...I know pros who are also in the enjoyment of it, it's about getting the best shot they can because it has their name on it. It's a do what you love, the money will come later type scenario. I know one PJ who never intended to do that line of work, they were just in it for taking pictures, but their pictures were so good and told the story that they got a permanent job after a temporary internship.

For me if I had to go pro I could never use Canikon cameras no matter how good the images they produce are...every time I'm forced to use one I just want to throw it at a brick wall because of the poor design of their menu system.

I'm the same way about Photoshop (having edited digital images for 20 years)...every time I'm forced to use that program I want to smash the keyboard because of it's poor way of doing things (I use Corel PhotoPaint which looks a lot like Photoshop and is almost as powerful, but it's just more intuitive, like holding down the right mouse button to select an area to clone instead of having to hold down a key on the keyboard to do it).

Pro equipment isn't always the best choice.

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Old Mar 26, 2008, 12:21 PM   #14
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For me if I had to go pro I could never use Canikon cameras no matter how good the images they produce are...every time I'm forced to use one I just want to throw it at a brick wall because of the poor design of their menu system.
So are you saying that you would choose not to use the best equipment for the job (let's just use the assumption that Canon/Nikon is the best without starting a debate on that), even if it was producing the best results because of a menu system that you might use for 0.25% of your shooting time? Thus jeopordising the chance of getting the best images possible and also damaging your reputation.

As for the Photoshop thing, I have both (legal I might add) and for speed of basic editing I use PSP rather than PS.

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Old Mar 26, 2008, 4:36 PM   #15
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It's not just the menu system, it's accessing the various features of the cameras...the Oly I picked up on right away the first time I tried one (it's intuitive), whereas each time I pick up a Canikon I always have to stop and think about the controls, and as a mentor at a camera club I'm regularly picking up Canikon cameras to help people out, so this isn't a lack of knowledge or experience with the other cameras.

To get great pictures there also has to be a good mesh between the photographer and the camera. Now I'm neither new to photography (almost 40 years) nor to electronic still cameras (almost 20 years). I've also designed software, and if your interface doesn't make sense, people aren't going to take advantage of it.

Also the top of the line tool may not always be the best tool, otherwise these so-called pros would be jokes because they don't use a Hasselblad, or they limit themselves to 135 format instead of using medium format (I started out with 6x6 myself).

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Old Mar 26, 2008, 5:27 PM   #16
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Mike,

I agree - ergonomics are a very important part of photography. On your list of requirements it rates ver high. On Mark's it sounds other requirements rate higher. Nothing wrong with either. The key to success is understanding which features are going to be important to the user and which are less important. Unfortunately there is no single camera/lens solution for everyone.

But I still scratch my head over the idea of the look of the camera/lens being a driving factor for a serious ameture


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Old Mar 26, 2008, 5:30 PM   #17
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Hello JohnG, (sorry i spelled it wrong:G).

You did not entierly misunderstand me, I made the point that many pretenders will only buy gear to show of their pretences. Others buy the same equipment for the love of it, or there are those who buy again the same stuff for the feel of it. This equipment will perform just that what they ask of it. The one it is the talk of the town, the another will end up with marveleous pictures. The last likes the use of it and the sensuality it gives him, regardless of the images. BUT, then there is the guru, calling himself Pro, saying something and the flocks follow and do what he says, the Pro's.

In this forum I find the artists and the amateurs, anyway, many more than in other forums. They tel their feelings, knowledge and experience, glad to share it all. My deep respect, they have.

I try to find the motifs of those people, the artists, the lovers and the sensitives. Their dedication needs hounored, recognized, understood!

"Pofessional" means for equipment makers and marketeers, hi quality and reliebility and back up service. Not the means to make good photographs.

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Old Mar 26, 2008, 5:46 PM   #18
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Terpentijn wrote:
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Hello Jhon G,

You did not entierly misunderstand me, I made the point that many pretenders will only buy gear to show of their pretences. ..... BUT, then there is the guru, calling himself Pro, saying something and the flocks follow and do what he says, the Pro's.

The good thing is such people are easy to identify on forums. They have opinions but never seem to have any actual photos themselves. If I am after advice or opinions I give credence to people who actually have photos to share and are of a style and quality I want to achieve. Its also why when I give advice here or elsewhere I am happy to share photographic evidence of my points. That way people can judge for themselves whether my advice has merit. It's a nice thing about photography - it's an applied art/science and very conducive to sharing on the web. So its pretty easy to tell when someone is all talk without the skill or experience to back it up.
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Old Mar 26, 2008, 6:03 PM   #19
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Good point John, and I'm pleased to say that recently we haven't had a lot of that happening with loud people making a lot of noise and statements of 'fact' without ever sharing with us a photograph that they have taken to show their point.

I would also say that recently there seems to be a reduction in the general photographic forums of posters, and in certain areas some of the very knowledgeable ones have gone which is a shame. However Steve's is a great place for us all to learn and still the main forum for me to spend my time lurking.
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Old Mar 26, 2008, 6:53 PM   #20
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Mark1616 wrote:
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Good point John, and I'm pleased to say that recently we haven't had a lot of that happening with loud people making a lot of noise and statements of 'fact' without ever sharing with us a photograph that they have taken to show their point.

I would also say that recently there seems to be a reduction in the general photographic forums of posters, and in certain areas some of the very knowledgeable ones have gone which is a shame. However Steve's is a great place for us all to learn and still the main forum for me to spend my time lurking.
Hi, Mark

I don't understand your comments. I have always viewed this particular forum as a technical forum regarding Oly DSLRs and the folks who post photos here, in general post them to illustrate a technical issue or accomplishment. I have provided many answers to questions based on my 40 years of photography experience.If you're saying I need to back up all my answers with specific photos, I am capable of doing that butI don't have that much time nor, frankly, theinterest in doing so.

If you're looking for a forum with a lot of photos for comment, this isn't the one. If you're looking for the folks who post here to always accompany their question-answering posts with photos, you're also looking in the wrong place, IMHO.

Ted
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