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Old Mar 26, 2008, 7:03 PM   #21
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I was following on from John with no particular reference to anyone currently here. I was referring to situations in the past here people have turned up at Steve's, trashed peoples work, made big claims on their experience and that their way was the way to go about it, but not given anything concrete to back it up with.
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Old Mar 26, 2008, 7:12 PM   #22
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Mark1616 wrote:
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I was following on from John with no particular reference to anyone currently here. I was referring to situations in the past here people have turned up at Steve's, trashed peoples work, made big claims on their experience and that their way was the way to go about it, but not given anything concrete to back it up with.
OK - sorry - then I misinterpreted your post. I am often incorrect, as my spouse will confirmif you askher(grin).
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Old Mar 26, 2008, 7:17 PM   #23
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LOL, no worries, I'm not married so just tell myself I'm incorrect.
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Old Mar 26, 2008, 7:20 PM   #24
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tkurkowski wrote:
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Good point John, and I'm pleased to say that recently we haven't had a lot of that happening with loud people making a lot of noise and statements of 'fact' without ever sharing with us a photograph that they have taken to show their point.

I would also say that recently there seems to be a reduction in the general photographic forums of posters, and in certain areas some of the very knowledgeable ones have gone which is a shame. However Steve's is a great place for us all to learn and still the main forum for me to spend my time lurking.
Hi, Mark

I don't understand your comments. I have always viewed this particular forum as a technical forum regarding Oly DSLRs and the folks who post photos here, in general post them to illustrate a technical issue or accomplishment. I have provided many answers to questions based on my 40 years of photography experience.If you're saying I need to back up all my answers with specific photos, I am capable of doing that butI don't have that much time nor, frankly, theinterest in doing so.

If you're looking for a forum with a lot of photos for comment, this isn't the one. If you're looking for the folks who post here to always accompany their question-answering posts with photos, you're also looking in the wrong place, IMHO.

Ted


Hi Ted.

Seeing as I opened this particular door I thought I'd chime in as to what I was referring to. In general people look for help in forums in one ofseveral ways:

1. I'm looking for gear for this purpose.... Can someone advise what gear to buy / use?

2. I'm getting poor results with my current gear, how am I using it wrong

3. Here are some recent photos, please provide C&C so I can get better.

Especially for inexperienced photographers it can be difficult to tell good advice from bad on questions in the 1 & 2 category. With 2, it's fairly simple - try the advice and it either works or it doesn't. But especially with #1, bad advice can be extremely costly and demoralizing. So, for instance, if I want to buy a macro lens I'm not interested in the opinions of people who dont shoot macro. If a person does recommend a piece of gear I like to see their work to judge whether or not they have a skill level around what I'm looking for (i.e. not everyone wants to be a pro, but by the same token a person could love their lens because its the only one they've ever used and their photos are of poor quality - so again, do I really want to spend my hard earned money on their recommendation or do I want to take the recommendation of someone who consistently takes very nice macro photos that I would be happy to emulate).

Now with #3, this is something I like to do a lot. I want to learn more. But, I'm primarily interested in the opinions of people that are skilled in that style of photogrpahy. If I take a portrait shot I seek out advice of others who shoot portraits. If their portraits are good, their opinion carries more weight with me.

I've found way too many people that freely offer advice in areas they have no experience in:

"I'm looking for a solution for shooting birds in flight"

they give some advice that sounds wrong. When asked they have no actual pictures of a bird in flight - " but heres a pigeon in the parking lot ground" or nothing at all. Why would I value their input or advice when they dont have any practical experience on which to advise. Or, people giving advice on what gear to buy to take photos of your toddler. Oh, do you have any photos you've taken of toddlers running around the house I might ask. No, I have no photos, but trust me I know what I'm talking about.

So I'm not saying every post should be backed up by photos. But, if I'm asking for advice and you were unwilling to provide photos illustrating your advice in practice I would be disinclined to believe you. Again since most practicing photogs have thousands of photos. It doesn't mean you DONT know what you're talking about. Its just that since I dont know you I have no reason to believe you know what you're talking about without seeing that you've practiced what you preach.

Even with photogs with decades of experience, I've seen them give advice in areas where they have no practical experience - sports shooting advice when they've never actually shot sports but make assumptions that "it must be like photographing wildlife and I've done that once or twice". Does that make sense?

As Mark said, I am not making a reference to this particular forum just to forums in general and my approach to taking advice from people on forums.


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Old Mar 26, 2008, 7:22 PM   #25
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Mark1616 wrote:
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LOL, no worries, I'm not married so just tell myself I'm incorrect.
Then you would place yourself in the same flow as those of us who are married...

(grin)
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Old Mar 26, 2008, 7:30 PM   #26
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JohnG wrote:
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Even with photogs with decades of experience, I've seen them give advice in areas where they have no practical experience - sports shooting advice when they've never actually shot sports but make assumptions that "it must be like photographing wildlife and I've done that once or twice". Does that make sense?
Yes it does. But it never occured to me to provide advice on an area of photography in which I don't have experience. So this whole discussion surprises me, probably indicating my level of naivete with photo forums in general. However, I do think you'll find that the participants in this particular forum are very mature, in the sense that they don't respond to a post with which they are not experienced.

Ted
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Old Mar 27, 2008, 12:31 AM   #27
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Mike,

I agree - ergonomics are a very important part of photography. On your list of requirements it rates ver high. On Mark's it sounds other requirements rate higher. Nothing wrong with either. The key to success is understanding which features are going to be important to the user and which are less important. Unfortunately there is no single camera/lens solution for everyone.

But I still scratch my head over the idea of the look of the camera/lens being a driving factor for a serious ameture
For me if the interface of the camera, the controls (and not just the menu) didn't mesh well with me I would be trying to figure something out instead of taking pictures. Of course if I had the money (and could have waited) I would have bought the Panasonic L1 kit instead, because it has a proper aperture ring on its lenses, and a shutter dial; rather than having to turn an unmarked wheel and look at the screen...again that goes back to controls meshing well with the user, since the SLR I used for 20 years had full manual controls.

Regarding looks I admit I get some odd looks about my E-300 because it doesn't have a penta-hump, but I know a pro portrait photographer/teacher who uses the E-330 because of its live view capability...when I see him in May I'll have to see if he upgraded (?) to the E-3, or got one of the dual sensor Sonys (he was sitll using the E-330 last time I saw him even though there was the E-410/510 live view cameras).

At the club where I'm surrounded by Canikon users those same people who give me the odd looks are impressed when I show up with my portrait grip attached...they're shocked to find out that I could actually use a grip with a camera like mine.

Anyway, I'm proud to say I'm NOT a professional...the professionals I've met tend to have limited thinking when it comes to photography, whereas I'm always open to try something new (although I'm leary about "camera tossing" with my good camera). I guess I would be more of an artistic photographer, and yes I'm trying to make money at it...here's one where I pointed a laser pointer at my camera (no, I did not look through the viewfinder)...I call it "Soul of H.A.L." (I was sruprised at the colours I got out of the laser, although it's harder to see on the small screen):


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Old Mar 27, 2008, 7:44 AM   #28
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Gentlemen, gentlemen, please,

By the sound of it all, there is a great deal to be said about the value of "Profesional", as well in the person off as well for the equipement. Sure, if you make a living of it you are good, either in commercial skills or in artistic skills. No doubt, you are a succesfull Pro then.

So, there are many reasons to buy equipment, as I have illustrated in previous posts. Now it is said that it is not the equipment that makes the Pro but his skill. Something we knew for a long time. It has been said in several posts: "It is not the chissel that makes the cabinet, its the carpenter."

My supposition is that one's lifestyle lays at the roots of ons's choises, be it photo equipement or anything. Thereafter I pose the theory that those who love to take pictures succeed better in making good one's. The dedicated amateur studies his gear and explores the possibillities of his equipment, the economic driven Pro wants results on investment.

I want tostart an new impulseto the standardof Pro equipment and of Pro photographers. Each one has their own set of rules and specifications. Different but equal value. to the user.

So, stop bashing each other for beeing not a "real" pro or "only" using Olympus C/N/P gear. Be proud of what you use and of your work. Be openminded for honest critics and keep on learning from those who love their job or art.

Then you are a real professional!
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Old Mar 27, 2008, 8:40 AM   #29
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Terpentijn wrote:
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My supposition is that one's lifestyle lays at the roots of ons's choises, be it photo equipement or anything.
Since we're discussing this in a DSLR forum, not a digicam forum I guess I dont understand how 'lifestyle' factors in to the decision. I.E. we're not talking about people who are choosing the smallest digicam because it fits in their pocket and can be easily taken clubbing or to dinner or wherever. I would think for the DSLR users out there, each person has a list of requirements they need their tool to do. Those requirements are driven by the types of photogrpahy they like to pursue. I guess I would be surprised if there were truly that many people here whose lifes were completely dominated by their photography. I.E. not many national geographic type photographers who spend months at a time out in the field.

My lifestyle - the neighborhood I live in, my family, the friends I hang out with, the type of car I drive, the type of career I have really has no bearing on the camera body, lenses or accessories I buy. What I enjoy photographing is what drives those decisions. Now, like Mike mentions, there are some requirements each person has that are personal preferences and not directly related to the subject of our photography. For instance, some people want a small / light camera - others prefer a larger camera because it fits better in their hands. Some people want anti-shake built in and others dont care about it. Some people put emphasis on the LCD display while others might not. But once beyond those personal preferences, I think the advanced photographer / artist gets the tools that meet those personal preferences and best meet the technical requirements for their style of photography.

For instance - for the sports shooting I do, I select my camera body based upon my personal preferences but moreso based upon the focus system, buffer handling, fps, high ISO performance because those are all features which help me create better sports photos. When I need a lens for shooting soccer/football, my lifestyle has nothing to do with it. I buy the lens based upon the requirements of that type of photography. Knowing the types of shots I want to take, I determine the lens needs to be at least 300mm. Knowing it will be low light I know I need f2.8. It's not a lifestyle thing - it's a matter of researching and experience saying these features are critical to success for the type of shooting I want to do. Then it's a matter of seeing what lenses are available for my camera mount that meet those conditions. Hopefully I can then find people in forums that have used the gear for those purposes.

Same is true for portrait work: The person who enjoys portrait photography buys the lenses and lights and accessories needed to create photos in the style they prefer. I guess I dont understand how their personal lifestyle influences their photography purchases. But as I said, I dont know many people whose photography dominates their life. I guess if the photography is so all consuming that you change your life to revolve around it then I could understand your point. I just didn't think most photographers were like that though.

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Old Mar 27, 2008, 10:46 AM   #30
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JohnG wrote:
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Terpentijn wrote:
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My supposition is that one's lifestyle lays at the roots of ons's choises, be it photo equipement or anything.
For instance - for the sports shooting I do, I select my camera body based upon my personal preferences but moreso based upon the focus system, buffer handling, fps, high ISO performance because those are all features which help me create better sports photos. When I need a lens for shooting soccer/football, my lifestyle has nothing to do with it. I buy the lens based upon the requirements of that type of photography. Knowing the types of shots I want to take, I determine the lens needs to be at least 300mm. Knowing it will be low light I know I need f2.8. It's not a lifestyle thing - it's a matter of researching and experience saying these features are critical to success for the type of shooting I want to do. Then it's a matter of seeing what lenses are available for my camera mount that meet those conditions. Hopefully I can then find people in forums that have used the gear for those purposes.
Dear JohnG,

Thank you for your open and honest comment. There in you prove my point,it's the photographer that makes the picture, not the equipment. When you say your lifestyle is not a factor, I belive you as far as you say it does not dictate your way of living as the "Photographer"! However, you choose the gear to suit your needs as a sports journalist, a portrettist. You have to live up to those aims, and that I call "lifestyle".

It may be that I am Dutch, living in France that I may spell tings wrong or understand words in a different manner as UK, USA or AUS's do, be honest those do use their language each in a very particular way. Please, try to read between the lines a bit.

What has surprised me most is the broad spectrum of all reactions on this topic, I am learning a lot and enjoy it very much.

Terpentijn.
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