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Old Mar 30, 2008, 1:15 PM   #41
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Dear JohnG,

I apreciate your comment, it makes me think I still do not use the English language as I should, nor do understand it as if I was English. However, I do still think that Ted is a bit over reacting, like he is very sensitive to my comment. Maybe he has a tender spot there.

Once one goes on this forum, discussing how much Pro one is or how much one does believe in once craftmanship, one must be prepared to some criticisme, like you do, and stand up to it.

I am new to this forum, yes, but I have learned a lot here, on al aspects of photographic art. I do raise my voice to those who claim superiority only by seniority.

Experience comes by failing, seniority comes by waiting.

Terpentijn.
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Old Mar 30, 2008, 7:41 PM   #42
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I've been quite mystified by this whole thread. People on this forum have been quite civilised and genuinely helpful and respectful. This thread is the odd one out, where people are a bit cranky and things are a little personal. I don't think we need it, and we could just forget it and go back to the normal threads, which I quite like.

And you don't have to imagine Ted as being specially sensitive. It's a simple matter of written words having no body language cues or spoken tone to soften the impact. Email and messages like this always appear more harsh than intended. You should be light on criticism and heavy on praise just to appear neutral.

Hmm. This is just rambling now. I'll go back and post some E3 related stuff I've been too busy to do until now. :-)
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Old Mar 30, 2008, 9:17 PM   #43
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anomaly wrote:
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I've been quite mystified by this whole thread. People on this forum have been quite civilised and genuinely helpful and respectful. This thread is the odd one out, where people are a bit cranky and things are a little personal. I don't think we need it, and we could just forget it and go back to the normal threads, which I quite like.
Thank you for putting into words what I've been thinking but thought perhaps I was just being too sensitive. I'm happy to see that I wasn't alone.

Zig Guzikowski


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Old Mar 31, 2008, 2:18 AM   #44
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And I guess I got a little on edge because people always assume if your a professional you're the best out there...compare how a taxi driver, a professional driver, drives compared to you.

I run a camera club's auditorium (because no one else has the skills), so I get a chance to talk with the lecturers before they speak (who include everyone from enthusiasts, artists, pundits (like Michael Reichmann), unique photographers (like astronaut Roberta Bondar), and photojournalists (pj's for short), and the amateurs and those who do it for the love of photography know more than the pros like pj's.

I've met pj's who have stopped learning photography for instance, they have only learned what they need to to get the job done, or are very set in their ways...they don't bother to expand their photography skills that might make their job better, or improve their photographs; they don't visit forums like this to ask questions, or share their knowledge, and they are set in their ways...I know one pj who absolutely refuses to try digital, and uses the same equipment they've used for decades. Pundits tend to believe that only their way is the right way, and refuse to listen to other opinions.

Now the enthusiasts and amateurs I refer to AREN'T trying to be posers, they buy the higher-end equipment for the love of the hobby...they continue to buy new equipment, learn new skills, and try new things. Yesterday I was at a used camera sale and I bought a ring light (for $20, yes it works perfectly), a tool that tends to be used by police (CSI), forensics, and doctors/dentists...now I did not buy the ring light to pose as one of those professionals, but to expand the tools I use and learn some new skills and see how having a tool like that can expand my photography.

That's why I get on a soapbox when someone starts a thread like this, people assume that pros are the best out there, and they simply aren't, they just make money doing it; no offence to any pro out there, but then again if you're here you're better than a pro!

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Old Mar 31, 2008, 8:03 AM   #45
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Hi Mike,

I just wanted to goon record as saying that I wasn't thinking of you when I echoed what Anamoly had to say. I don't know you but, in the year or so that I've been following this Oly forum, I've found your responses to be forthright- you get to the point very quickly. It's also clear you don't suffer fools gladly.

I was referring to, what I felt, was an usuallyharsh response by Terpentijn towards Ted. I kept reading what Ted had to say and he said nothing, in my view, that sounded egotistical or had any air of superiority.

Ironic that Ted started a post on this forum about 6 weeks ago as to why he liked this forum over others due to the common courtesies extended by all that frequent this site.

Well, I'm going to leave it at that. I'm going to the Florida Keys for the next two weeks with Sheryl Crow playing on the car radio ....."I'm going to soak up the Sun, gonna tell everyone to lighten up"

:|

Zig








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Old Mar 31, 2008, 10:57 AM   #46
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zig-123 wrote:
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anomaly wrote:
Quote:
I've been quite mystified by this whole thread. People on this forum have been quite civilised and genuinely helpful and respectful. This thread is the odd one out, where people are a bit cranky and things are a little personal. I don't think we need it, and we could just forget it and go back to the normal threads, which I quite like.
Thank you for putting into words what I've been thinking but thought perhaps I was just being too sensitive. I'm happy to see that I wasn't alone.

Zig Guzikowski

I do admid I have been a bit harsh in my comment, even, I am prepared to say that I misunderstood. But remains the reality, pro's do have a heavy voice if it comes to choise of equipment and how to exercice our art.[suB][suP] I for one, am a passionat photographer, I like to buy the latest equipement and make the most of it. I do not have to post pictures to prove my point, if I post pictures , I like them, and I do care how others think about them. If someone says I can do better, I judge the reactions and learn some. If anyone feels offended, I am sorry, but I stand by my point, Pro's do not know it all! The photographers with passion andperceverence are most qualified to advice us to inprove our efford to understand our craft.[/suP][/suB]

[suB][suP]Terpentijn.[/suP][/suB]
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Old Mar 31, 2008, 11:15 AM   #47
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zig-123 wrote:
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Hi Mike,

I just wanted to goon record as saying that I wasn't thinking of you when I echoed what Anamoly had to say. I don't know you but, in the year or so that I've been following this Oly forum, I've found your responses to be forthright- you get to the point very quickly. It's also clear you don't suffer fools gladly.

I was referring to, what I felt, was an usuallyharsh response by Terpentijn towards Ted. I kept reading what Ted had to say and he said nothing, in my view, that sounded egotistical or had any air of superiority.

Ironic that Ted started a post on this forum about 6 weeks ago as to why he liked this forum over others due to the common courtesies extended by all that frequent this site.

Well, I'm going to leave it at that. I'm going to the Florida Keys for the next two weeks with Sheryl Crow playing on the car radio ....."I'm going to soak up the Sun, gonna tell everyone to lighten up"

:|

Zig







Once you are soaked by sun and returned to realety, please tell me if you agree to the fact that many, not all(!), Pro's proclaim their superiority, thus restricting oncomming talents to make them to feel inferior if they use only O/C/N/P gear. Let us tell these starters that is is of no importance to the gear you start with, it is the spirit you use to make pictures! Back in 1952 I started out with a KODAK Box camera,9x16 at the time, I sold my pictures to the zoo where I took them (ARTIS, Amsterdam) when I was 10 years old ( with help of a very freindly neighbour). He was a Pro, but he teached me how to LOOK!!! I still respect him for it.

Terpentijn.
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Old Mar 31, 2008, 11:28 AM   #48
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Mikefellh wrote:
Quote:
And I guess I got a little on edge because people always assume if your a professional you're the best out there...compare how a taxi driver, a professional driver, drives compared to you.

I run a camera club's auditorium (because no one else has the skills), so I get a chance to talk with the lecturers before they speak (who include everyone from enthusiasts, artists, pundits (like Michael Reichmann), unique photographers (like astronaut Roberta Bondar), and photojournalists (pj's for short), and the amateurs and those who do it for the love of photography know more than the pros like pj's.

I've met pj's who have stopped learning photography for instance, they have only learned what they need to to get the job done, or are very set in their ways...they don't bother to expand their photography skills that might make their job better, or improve their photographs; they don't visit forums like this to ask questions, or share their knowledge, and they are set in their ways...I know one pj who absolutely refuses to try digital, and uses the same equipment they've used for decades. Pundits tend to believe that only their way is the right way, and refuse to listen to other opinions.

Now the enthusiasts and amateurs I refer to AREN'T trying to be posers, they buy the higher-end equipment for the love of the hobby...they continue to buy new equipment, learn new skills, and try new things. Yesterday I was at a used camera sale and I bought a ring light (for $20, yes it works perfectly), a tool that tends to be used by police (CSI), forensics, and doctors/dentists...now I did not buy the ring light to pose as one of those professionals, but to expand the tools I use and learn some new skills and see how having a tool like that can expand my photography.

That's why I get on a soapbox when someone starts a thread like this, people assume that pros are the best out there, and they simply aren't, they just make money doing it; no offence to any pro out there, but then again if you're here you're better than a pro!
You are grasping my intentions, I love you for it, you give hope to the early starters and the "High spirits" out there!!! We work for the love of it ! Yeay, yeah !

Terpentijn.
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Old Mar 31, 2008, 12:04 PM   #49
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Terpentijn wrote:
Once you are soaked by sun and returned to realety, please tell me if you agree to the fact that many, not all(!), Pro's proclaim their superiority, thus restricting oncomming talents to make them to feel inferior if they use only O/C/N/P gear. Let us tell these starters that is is of no importance to the gear you start with, it is the spirit you use to make pictures! Back in 1952 I started out with a KODAK Box camera,9x16 at the time, I sold my pictures to the zoo where I took them (ARTIS, Amsterdam) when I was 10 years old ( with help of a very freindly neighbour). He was a Pro, but he teached me how to LOOK!!! I still respect him for it.

Terpentijn.



Hi Terpentijn,

I really can't say as I know any professional photographers or PJs so I can''t comment Although, in all walks of life there are people who profess to be something they are not.

Ido share your premise that it is the "vision" of a person or their ability, not the equipment that is the key in the equation.

I marvel at some of the results I see on this forum as well as visiting other sites as well. And using a DSLR is not a guarantee for spectacular photos. When you get a chance, take a look at the photos that Wilson Tchoi can produce with a Canon A620 digicam:

http://photo.net/photodb/presentatio...tion_id=317651

At the age of 59, I'm very comfortable in my own skin and I know that when it comes to photography I am no professional. I am a "conscious incompetant". That is to say, that i know that there is a whole heck of a lot that I have yet to learn and I'm not very good at it. But that's why I visit this site often. I read, I learn, and most of all I have fun.

Talk to you when I get back.......



:|

zig


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Old Mar 31, 2008, 12:43 PM   #50
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Mikefellh wrote:
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And I guess I got a little on edge because people always assume if your a professional you're the best out there...compare how a taxi driver, a professional driver, drives compared to you.
With experience in anything comes knowledge and skill. A cab driver may not posses more skill in driving a car, but almost assuredly would know the best route to get from point a to point b and know the roads etc of the city better then the normal driver.

That being said, maybe you enjoy driving cars. Maybe you have a Honda NSX that you take out in the country regularly and drive on the curvy twisty roads for pure enjoyment. Would the cab driver be able to navigate these types of roads as well as you? Likely not.

The thing with professionals, as has been mentioned, is that they tend to be very specific in their skills. I'm probably one of the newest people on these forums with regard to photography in general, but the way I see this translate into photography is that a professional may be able to give you an expert opinion on the one aspect of photography that they specialize in. It may even be narrowed down to a particular scnenaro. However that doesn't change the fact that if they've been doing studio portrait photography for 20 years that their opinion is likely going to be one of the best you will get. That same person giving an opinion on wildlife photography, you may want to take it with a grain of salt.

Sure professionals may look at things without the emotion that other amatures put in to it. Sometimes that's the exact perspective we need. They may also be closeminded and egotistical. But at the same time that doesn't change the fact that their knowledge is valueable.

As far as the original question of this thread goes. I think most people on this forum are pretty happy with their "level" of professionalism. For example I doubt many semi-professional amature photographers here would be happy with constrains placed upon them by making the move to full profressionalism. And likewise, I doubt most professionals would have the kills and versatility (and want to take the pay cut!) to make the move back to the amature sector.
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