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Old Mar 31, 2008, 11:55 AM   #51
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zig-123 wrote:
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Terpentijn wrote:
Once you are soaked by sun and returned to realety, please tell me if you agree to the fact that many, not all(!), Pro's proclaim their superiority, thus restricting oncomming talents to make them to feel inferior if they use only O/C/N/P gear. Let us tell these starters that is is of no importance to the gear you start with, it is the spirit you use to make pictures! Back in 1952 I started out with a KODAK Box camera,9x16 at the time, I sold my pictures to the zoo where I took them (ARTIS, Amsterdam) when I was 10 years old ( with help of a very freindly neighbour). He was a Pro, but he teached me how to LOOK!!! I still respect him for it.

Terpentijn.



Hi Terpentijn,

I really can't say as I know any professional photographers or PJs so I can''t comment Although, in all walks of life there are people who profess to be something they are not.

Ido share your premise that it is the "vision" of a person or their ability, not the equipment that is the key in the equation.

I marvel at some of the results I see on this forum as well as visiting other sites as well. And using a DSLR is not a guarantee for spectacular photos. When you get a chance, take a look at the photos that Wilson Tchoi can produce with a Canon A620 digicam:

http://photo.net/photodb/presentatio...tion_id=317651

At the age of 59, I'm very comfortable in my own skin and I know that when it comes to photography I am no professional. I am a "conscious incompetant". That is to say, that i know that there is a whole heck of a lot that I have yet to learn and I'm not very good at it. But that's why I visit this site often. I read, I learn, and most of all I have fun.

Talk to you when I get back.......



:|

zig

Looking forward to it!

Terpentijn.
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Old Mar 31, 2008, 12:20 PM   #52
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Rileigh wrote:
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Mikefellh wrote:
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And I guess I got a little on edge because people always assume if your a professional you're the best out there...compare how a taxi driver, a professional driver, drives compared to you.
With experience in anything comes knowledge and skill. A cab driver may not posses more skill in driving a car, but almost assuredly would know the best route to get from point a to point b and know the roads etc of the city better then the normal driver.

That being said, maybe you enjoy driving cars. Maybe you have a Honda NSX that you take out in the country regularly and drive on the curvy twisty roads for pure enjoyment. Would the cab driver be able to navigate these types of roads as well as you? Likely not.

The thing with professionals, as has been mentioned, is that they tend to be very specific in their skills. I'm probably one of the newest people on these forums with regard to photography in general, but the way I see this translate into photography is that a professional may be able to give you an expert opinion on the one aspect of photography that they specialize in. It may even be narrowed down to a particular scnenaro. However that doesn't change the fact that if they've been doing studio portrait photography for 20 years that their opinion is likely going to be one of the best you will get. That same person giving an opinion on wildlife photography, you may want to take it with a grain of salt.

Sure professionals may look at things without the emotion that other amatures put in to it. Sometimes that's the exact perspective we need. They may also be closeminded and egotistical. But at the same time that doesn't change the fact that their knowledge is valueable.

As far as the original question of this thread goes. I think most people on this forum are pretty happy with their "level" of professionalism. For example I doubt many semi-professional amature photographers here would be happy with constrains placed upon them by making the move to full profressionalism. And likewise, I doubt most professionals would have the kills and versatility (and want to take the pay cut!) to make the move back to the amature sector.
When I started this thread I found that many Pro's asume an almost religious right on the truth. But I think there are many motivated photographers with a lot more skill and knowledge who can and want help people like me who want to learn and share.

If there are some who are offended out there, means to me, they are somehow not free enough to realize the value of sharing knowledge.

If you are able to live of your skill, you are good at it, period. If you want to share this experience, you are even better at it. I do not like teachers or Missionaires, they have spread more than disaster around the world. I like those who participate in the spreading of experience they have gained themselves.

That is what I meant by : "How professional are you?".

Terpentijn.


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Old Mar 31, 2008, 12:49 PM   #53
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Terpentijn wrote:
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When I started this thread I found that many Pro's asume an almost religious right on the truth. But I think there are many motivated photographers with a lot more skill and knowledge who can and want help people like me who want to learn and share.
It's a shame your experience with professional photogrpahers has been so negative. To my knowlege, Steve's has very few professional shooters - a couple but not many.

But I would encourage you to be open minded. Judge each person on their own merits regardless of whether they are pro or not. Regardless of whether they shoot Oly or not.

I would encourage you to be open to what other photographers have to say - especially those like Rileigh indicated have more experience in that specific genre of photography. Especially in regards to equipment and critique.

If you truly wish to get better at your craft, you'll seek those experienced people out. Sometimes you might not like what you hear. But I stand by my argument that those with the best advice are the ones who shoot what you like to shoot not those who shoot with the EQUIPMENT you like to shoot with. They may be professionals or not - but it's the experience and skill that matter not whether or not they're earning their income by it. In the end it is always your decision whose advice you will follow or not. But as with anything else in life - just seeking out opinions you WANT to hear will not make you a better photographer. So if all you look for is a mutual admiration society you're not likely to improve in your craft.



EDIT - the above applies to seeking c&c on photos. With regards to gear it is even more essential IMO to get opinions from people who use the gear for the type of photography you intend to use it for. If you want a portrait lens, who better than people who shoot portraits (pro or ameteur) and who produce results of a quality consistent with what you want to achieve to listen to?
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Old Mar 31, 2008, 1:51 PM   #54
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Dear JohnG,

I got your message, loud and clear. I wish to learn and share what I have learned. You place another perspective to this forum and to this thread.

As it is important to judge once work to that of equal minded will lead to specialisme To seek other skills I look into work of those who work a differend field.

Now I shoot close-up, mid range and landscape. Portrait is to alien to me, but I admire those who can. It challenges me though!

I do seek openminded craftsmen, not diciples. Flattering me is not sharing skill.

With respect, Terpentijn.


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Old Apr 2, 2008, 9:18 AM   #55
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tkurkowski wrote:
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If you are one of those "Pro's" who know it all and look for a oportunety to boast your ego, go to You Tube or the likes.

If it comes to openmindedness, you may learn some here as well.
Gee, the folks who have been in this forum for a long while have never accused me of being ego-driven or closed-minded. However, when I express an opinion that I don't think this is the best specific forum place to generally post photos for critique, you attack me??? Look in a mirror.

End of this discussion.

Ted

I am sorry that I have upset you, I have misunderstood your message. My quest was two fold:

1/ To find out what Pro's who earn a full time living from photography use as their gear and why.

2/ To find out what Pro's like that want to share with dedicated amateurs like me in choise of equipment and use of it.

Along the way of this thread I lost the road and got lost in the scrubs around it. Mainly becouse I do not master the English language enough to understand your intentions properly and express the sentiments I feel in a correct manner.

Once more, my sincere apologie to you, Tkurkowski.

Terpentijn.
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Old Apr 2, 2008, 9:22 AM   #56
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anomaly wrote:
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I've been quite mystified by this whole thread. People on this forum have been quite civilised and genuinely helpful and respectful. This thread is the odd one out, where people are a bit cranky and things are a little personal. I don't think we need it, and we could just forget it and go back to the normal threads, which I quite like.

And you don't have to imagine Ted as being specially sensitive. It's a simple matter of written words having no body language cues or spoken tone to soften the impact. Email and messages like this always appear more harsh than intended. You should be light on criticism and heavy on praise just to appear neutral.

Hmm. This is just rambling now. I'll go back and post some E3 related stuff I've been too busy to do until now. :-)
After study of the whole thread, I see how I stirred up feelings and sentiments. See my latest repply to Tkurkowski. I will reflect a lot longer on all replies before jumping the fence.

To you also, my sincere apologies.

Terpentijn.
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Old Apr 2, 2008, 11:53 PM   #57
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i earn all my income from photography, so i guess that makes me a pro
but what am i like as a photographer, well my opinion is im a bit of a hack, but thats ok. There are photographers and photographers, the idealist most people associate with the word 'pro' is the art photographer, im not one of those. My portraits stink and look like mugshots. I actually thought of doing a B&W series with subjects holding cards with numbers on them standing in front of a height measure to show how clever i was.

Fortunately for me in this racket there are lots of angles to earning money, you can do well at it as a business, but you can also fail badly even though you are a good photographer. What kind of businessman is a photographer? well mostly theyre pretty bad, as it happens Im a cut better at that.

in choosing gear, well Olympus is where I began, and after a sojourn with Panasonic gear I just sort of naturally gravitated back here. As it happens (not that i realised it at the time) 4/3rds is the right place for me, because i really need the deeper DoF and wide open performance and a 4x3 frame.

That said the improvements E3 brought to 4/3rds is very welcome, and i travel with 800iso pretty well these days. I could like others use C&N and not even question the impractical nature of this gear for real estate photography, but somehow i landed on my feet, again.

I think i should probably pick up a FF camera just to see what its like to use, to extend my reach as a photographer, grow a weird beard and wear a stripped shirt and berret, take up the cafe life and after a period who knows i might like it. I look at Sigma's SD14 the same way, although the things got a dog of a WB theres something about the images that attracts me.

lets end it with the usual gratuitous and completely unnecessary E3 shots

darn, left edge is still not right


something about WB?


gawd i blew the highlight


but i sold all of them

Riley


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Old Apr 3, 2008, 5:20 AM   #58
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Terpentijn wrote:
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I am sorry that I have upset you
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Along the way of this thread I lost the road and got lost in the scrubs around it. Mainly becouse I do not master the English language enough to understand your intentions properly and express the sentiments I feel in a correct manner.

Once more, my sincere apologie to you, Tkurkowski.

Terpentijn.
Your apology is accepted.

Ted
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Old Apr 3, 2008, 8:33 AM   #59
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tkurkowski wrote:
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Terpentijn wrote:
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I am sorry that I have upset you
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Along the way of this thread I lost the road and got lost in the scrubs around it. Mainly becouse I do not master the English language enough to understand your intentions properly and express the sentiments I feel in a correct manner.

Once more, my sincere apologie to you, Tkurkowski.

Terpentijn.
Your apology is accepted.

Ted
Thank you,

In a previous post I re-explaned where my interets are. Due to all the mayhem I forgot. Now I am still interested personaly in the reactions as Rriley wrote. Also I think other serious amateurs are interested in the views of the many different Pro's around.

Hopefully, the reactions from now on will be of that kind.

Terpentijn.
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Old Apr 3, 2008, 8:39 AM   #60
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Rriley wrote:
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i earn all my income from photography, so i guess that makes me a pro
but what am i like as a photographer, well my opinion is im a bit of a hack, but thats ok. There are photographers and photographers, the idealist most people associate with the word 'pro' is the art photographer, im not one of those. My portraits stink and look like mugshots. I actually thought of doing a B&W series with subjects holding cards with numbers on them standing in front of a height measure to show how clever i was.



Riley

Thank you for the reply you posted, that is exactly what I meant when I started this thread. No more, no less.

Please, all you Pro's out there, tell us amateurs how you choose your gear and how you use it. We will most likely not push you out of a job, because we are no buisinessmen! At most, artists.

Terpentijn.
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