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Old Sep 5, 2009, 11:09 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by dnas View Post
I'm not sure if you understand the Panasonic G1 & GH1 4/3 cameras.

They have an EVF that allows you to hold the camera up to your face. In fact, I do this almost 100% of the time!!!!

As for slow lenses, I bought the G1 mainly so I could use old fast lenses, including Canon FL/FD(e.g. FD 50mm F1.4 SSC) , Minolta MC/MD (e.g. 85mm F2), Nikon, Konica, Pentax, Olympus OM, etc....
I do understand that. Sorry, I was refering to the Live-View-only cameras, the DMC-GF1 and the EP-1.

As far as using old fast lenses, I don't see why a 4/3 camera is better than a 4/3 camera for that.

Ted
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Old Sep 5, 2009, 11:15 AM   #12
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You obviously don't have a full grasp of the 4/3 format. ALL 4/3 cameras are "non-DSLR", period.
I think my grasp of the 4/3 cameras is just fine. Only a purist would claim that an EVF means a camera is not a DSLR - most folks would agree that "DSLR" means the viewfinder is looking through the lens, period.

The fact that EVFs in the past have not been nearly as good as looking through a mirror/pentaprism, does not mean that EVFs won't evolve until they are as good. I don't know whether the Panny 4/3 DSLRs have good EVFs, since I haven't used any of them. I am someone who vastly prefers an optical VF to the few EVF cameras I have used. But I'm not willing to claim that an EVF will never be as good - I've spent too many years in the computer industry to be that foolish.

Ted

Last edited by tkurkowski; Sep 5, 2009 at 11:25 AM.
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Old Sep 5, 2009, 7:04 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by tkurkowski View Post
I do understand that. Sorry, I was refering to the Live-View-only cameras, the DMC-GF1 and the EP-1.

As far as using old fast lenses, I don't see why a 4/3 camera is better than a 4/3 camera for that.

Ted
Ok, I see. You mentioned 4/3 cameras as a generic type that has to be held away from the face, and yet, 50% of of that type has EVF. The thing is, if you say "Live-View-only cameras", the G1 & GH1 are "Live-View-only cameras" but they can take the liveview on the LCD & in the EVF, so it's probably better not to use "Live-View-only cameras" meaning LCD only.



The reason 4/3 is better than 4/3 for MF lenses has to do with distance between lens mount and sensor.(flange distance)
For example, the main mount types of lenses(say, Japanese) that can be used unmodified with 4/3 are:
Olympus
Nikon
Pentax m42
Pentax K (this can be used, but check that the aperture follower protector doesn't foul the electronic pins on the 4/3 camera)
Minolta MC/MD (slight modification)

BUT not:
Canon FL/FD
Konica Hexanon (modification required)
This is because the flange distance for these lenses is too small to allow an adapter to be used. On 4/3, there is an extra 20mm to play with, so there is plenty of room for an adaptor.

However, 4/3 cameras can take ALL of the above lenses UNMODIFIED.

Previously, I had to modify some lenses to use on my 4/3 E-510, and I couldn't use Canon FL/FD lenses at all.
Now with 4/3, I can use THEM ALL!!!!!!!!

Last edited by dnas; Sep 5, 2009 at 7:06 PM.
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Old Sep 5, 2009, 7:14 PM   #14
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I think my grasp of the 4/3 cameras is just fine. Only a purist would claim that an EVF means a camera is not a DSLR - most folks would agree that "DSLR" means the viewfinder is looking through the lens, period.

The fact that EVFs in the past have not been nearly as good as looking through a mirror/pentaprism, does not mean that EVFs won't evolve until they are as good. I don't know whether the Panny 4/3 DSLRs have good EVFs, since I haven't used any of them. I am someone who vastly prefers an optical VF to the few EVF cameras I have used. But I'm not willing to claim that an EVF will never be as good - I've spent too many years in the computer industry to be that foolish.

Ted
I don't agree with this statement!!! My P&S cameras "look through the lens"!!!!! Every digital P&S camera looks through the lens!!!! But they are NOT DSLR cameras!!!

I think many people equate "digital interchangeable lens camera" with DSLR. So they refer to 4/3 as a DSLR, even though from a purist point of view, they are not.

The EVF in the G1 & GH1 are brilliant !!!!!
They are 50% large than the TTL viewfinder on my E-510 (about twice the area)
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Old Sep 5, 2009, 8:45 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by tkurkowski View Post
I think my grasp of the 4/3 cameras is just fine. Only a purist would claim that an EVF means a camera is not a DSLR - most folks would agree that "DSLR" means the viewfinder is looking through the lens, period.

Ted
You aren't thinking about what all those letters stand for. The last letter, the "R", stands for Reflex, and electronic finder cameras do not have a reflex viewing system...not close. That's not even debatable.

Worse yet, when you press the release to shoot multiple image bursts, you lose even the electronic view and all you get until the burst ends are quick reviews of the last image, so in burst mode it becomes a no-finder-at-all camera, electronic or reflex, leaving you no way to follow a moving subject and keep it accurately framed after the first image in the burst.

The last letter is why you don't lose the view in a multiple image burst mode with a *DSLR*. Big, BIG difference.

Last edited by Greg Chappell; Sep 5, 2009 at 9:16 PM.
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Old Sep 5, 2009, 9:40 PM   #16
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I watched the GF1 press release video in Japanese. Folks from Panasonic were calling it DSL.

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Old Sep 6, 2009, 8:14 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Greg Chappell View Post
You aren't thinking about what all those letters stand for. The last letter, the "R", stands for Reflex, and electronic finder cameras do not have a reflex viewing system...not close. That's not even debatable.

Worse yet, when you press the release to shoot multiple image bursts, you lose even the electronic view and all you get until the burst ends are quick reviews of the last image, so in burst mode it becomes a no-finder-at-all camera, electronic or reflex, leaving you no way to follow a moving subject and keep it accurately framed after the first image in the burst.

The last letter is why you don't lose the view in a multiple image burst mode with a *DSLR*. Big, BIG difference.
Greg, you're right - I did forget about the reflex part.

Red
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Old Sep 6, 2009, 10:44 AM   #18
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Hi Guys!

I like the Gf1 and in black a lot (they've ticked a lot of the right boxes), but I'm with Ted, in that I'd want and need an EVF built in and not as an add on - I'd loose an attached VF (optical or EVF) and that's guaranteed! Sensorwise, I'm surprised that Pana didn;t go for the GH1 sensor but then again its the same sensor as the Ep1, and Oly have managed to do a really good job with IQ for the EP1.

Regards the two lenses ... the 20mm F1.7 looks good but a wee bit expensive if you ask me and the 45mm macro .. well thats just way too spendy for my liking!

Cheers


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Old Sep 6, 2009, 1:45 PM   #19
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I think my grasp of the 4/3 cameras is just fine. Only a purist would claim that an EVF means a camera is not a DSLR - most folks would agree that "DSLR" means the viewfinder is looking through the lens, period. ...
... and by that definition, all live view cameras including all of the live view P&S models would be DSLRs.

SLRs, whether digital or not, have an optical VF that looks through the taking lens via a mirror in the optical path. In most such designs, the mirror must move out of the way during the exposure, though some have used pelical mirrors.

The only thing different about the eyelevel VF on the G-1/GH-1 and that on the GF-1 is that the GF-1's is removable to allow the camera to be more compact. Other than this removability, and the fact that it tilts, there is no major difference. The fact that the G-1/GH-1 finder is not removable does not in any way make them DSLRs.
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Old Sep 6, 2009, 4:03 PM   #20
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I agree. My suggestion that the 4/3 cameras are DSLRs was incorrect. I apologize to everyone on this forum for introducing that concept.

All of the DSLRs I have owned from the beginning of digital photography, have been Oly DSLRs. And since the 4/3 system does not allow autofocus on the expensive Oly lenses I have, I have zero interest in 4/3 cameras, therefore I have zero interest in continuing this down-in-the-weeds discussion. Have a nice day.

Ted

Last edited by tkurkowski; Sep 6, 2009 at 4:51 PM.
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