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Old Oct 9, 2013, 6:25 AM   #1
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Default Thom Hogan's view of the Pentax K3

Thom Hogan's written a follow up on piece on his thoughts on the plight of DX/APS-C shooters and the new Pentax K3 and what he basically calls the Pentax D400:

http://www.dslrbodies.com/newsviews/...he-pentax.html

Definitely worth reading and made me wonder why the EM1 didn't figure as an alternative and if we had been given an E7 whether that would have figured in the article ?
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Old Oct 9, 2013, 7:01 AM   #2
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Thom's post is interesting but seems extremely Naive. First, let's talk about his issue with lack of DX lenses in Nikon - Canon does the exact same thing. They really on their full-frame lenses to fit the needs of the serious enthusiast with a couple minor exceptions. Thom talks about sports photographers wanting small-lens solutions. Canon and Nikon are not going to produce APS versions of 70-200 2.8, 300mm 2.8 and 400mm 2.8 lenses. Sorry, not going to happen. There's no reason for it TO happen.

Now, on to his next point - that d300/300s users are bent out of shape. Yep, they are. But, what choice do they have? Canon users are in the same boat - no 7d replacement in aps-c world. One of the benefits those users enjoy is the focus systems. neither Pentax nor Oly have demonstrated focus systems as capable - especially at tracking. And, for Pentax at least, the lack of telephoto lenses is a big issue.

So, why hasn't Nikon produced a d300 replacement? Because they didn't have to - there's been very little market pressure to do so. The Pentax K3 sounds like a great camera. Hopefully it performs well. But it's a big step from that to people leaving Nikon for Pentax in droves as Thom seems to think is happening.

Remember, he writes a blog. He has to say things he thinks will get people to read. The K3 is a great sounding camera, but Thom's comments about Nikon really seem extremely naive - especially since they ignore completely that Nikon's decisions surrounding the D300s replacement precisely mirror their competition at Canon.
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Old Oct 9, 2013, 8:19 AM   #3
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Hey John

I agree completely with you on the lenses for both Canon and Nikon systems and can see where both of them manufacturers are coming from. Its not like Oly where they were starting whole new system from scratch but I do find it interesting that Pentax has gone out of its way to make a range of DX specific glass much like Oly.

Regards ppl switching I know thats also going to be difficult esp if the system that your looking at simply doesn't have the same or equivalent lens line up. Looking at Pentax lens range its a little difficult to work out what they have that matches the Zukio SHG's or Canons "L" series glass but then again my head starts to spin when I look at the range of Canon/Nikon glass thats available. I think its pretty clear that both want their users to switch up to FX bodied cameras and that's their intended upgrade path.

Your right on the AF systems, even with the new EM1 were looking at the approx the same AF performance of the E5 with the FT glass and the K5M2 from all accounts is basically on par or slightly better than the E5's. I'm interested to see whether Pentax have managed to up the ante here and if they're able to at least match what the D300/7D AF can do. I don't expect to see people switch systems simply because of a new cam but what did interested me is the reaction that Pentax has managed to generate by the K3 from across the various system users (inc. writers like THom) and yet the EM1 hasn;t generated the same level of debate and interest.
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Old Oct 9, 2013, 9:21 AM   #4
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Harj - in my opinion the EM1 is still trying to catch up to 4/3. The reality is, the high end APS-C user has not yet embraced EVF and as you say, EM1 is still trying to catch up to focus levels of the E5 which wasn't at the level of D300. It's just not a truly viable alternative yet for D300/7d users.

I still agree m4/3 was the right direction for Oly because long term it offers more promise of market share. But, it's going to take a couple generations to get it there and for enthusiasts to embrace EVF.

As for Pentax' decision to make aps-c specific lenses they took an approach similar to Oly - they abandoned full-frame in favor of the smaller footprint. That could end up hurting Pentax greatly now that cost of full-frame is coming down. And, just like megapixels, there will be a perception on the part of the public that Full frame is better. It's certainly a direction Nikon and Canon are pushing. In sales and marketing, perception is reality.

Again though, only time will tell if the market reacts the way Thom thinks it will and droves leave Nikon (and presumably canon) because they want a newer APS-C flagship camera. Quite honestly, if that starts happening, Nikon and Canon will simply roll out their replacements.

So, while it's painful to Oly users, the EM1 is a necessary step back in DSLR terms in order to bring m4/3 forward. They are betting on it giving them a stronger position in the area where there's more growth opportunity. High end aps-c growth is non existent. It's a mature market being eroded by full frame and by "other" options.
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Old Oct 9, 2013, 2:14 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnG View Post
Harj - in my opinion the EM1 is still trying to catch up to 4/3. The reality is, the high end APS-C user has not yet embraced EVF and as you say, EM1 is still trying to catch up to focus levels of the E5 which wasn't at the level of D300. It's just not a truly viable alternative yet for D300/7d users.

I still agree m4/3 was the right direction for Oly because long term it offers more promise of market share. But, it's going to take a couple generations to get it there and for enthusiasts to embrace EVF.

As for Pentax' decision to make aps-c specific lenses they took an approach similar to Oly - they abandoned full-frame in favor of the smaller footprint. That could end up hurting Pentax greatly now that cost of full-frame is coming down. And, just like megapixels, there will be a perception on the part of the public that Full frame is better. It's certainly a direction Nikon and Canon are pushing. In sales and marketing, perception is reality.

Again though, only time will tell if the market reacts the way Thom thinks it will and droves leave Nikon (and presumably canon) because they want a newer APS-C flagship camera. Quite honestly, if that starts happening, Nikon and Canon will simply roll out their replacements.

So, while it's painful to Oly users, the EM1 is a necessary step back in DSLR terms in order to bring m4/3 forward. They are betting on it giving them a stronger position in the area where there's more growth opportunity. High end aps-c growth is non existent. It's a mature market being eroded by full frame and by "other" options.
And is likely why the E-7 never came to be. The sensor is no larger than that in their M43 line up. They likely made the right move in not releasing an E-7. I believe in time those E-3/E-5 bodies are going to drop in price considerably in the used camera world.
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Old Oct 9, 2013, 9:44 PM   #6
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I still think Pentax to be a somewhat similar position to going Olympus
these are manufacturers with less field support and less options from 3rd party stuff like flash, grips, batteries, software for raw support etc

That APSC have less native support from C&N has always been paramount in my mind along with the given that FF lenses sometimes disappoint on APS.
Its probably worth it for C&N to offer FF at somewhat of a discount just to get them all on board the FF lens ship.
As long as cheap FF competes with high end APS, the differences wont be felt that hard

Really for 43rds to exist, it had to differentiate with m43rds in some major way
I tried to get this idea across with the idea of Super 43rds, but the idea didnt take.
It seems that some 43rds lenses (50/2 in particular) actually work better on M1 than on the SLRs,
so the prospects arent that grim

heres a thought
as a system, has m43rds succeeded over high end APS? (just a different way of looking at it)

Last edited by Rriley; Oct 9, 2013 at 10:08 PM.
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Old Oct 11, 2013, 5:30 AM   #7
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Hi Guys

The K3's caused a bit of stir for the D300/D300s shooters over at DPR at least but hasn;t had teh same effect with the Canon 7D crowd. A lot of the arguments that we as FT users have made over the years for an E-7 are being made by a number of DX shooters - they have the glass but want an updated body to go with it. There's not a single word of say the EM1 but quiet a bit on the K3 and thats pretty amazing in itself - I haven;t seen a new camera not form Canikon in a long time cause this kind of reaction.

When you read the aruguments being made over at the DXPro forum - the crucial thing that they are looking for is AF speed, accurary, reliability, fps, raw buffer and flash sync and the crop factor.

Riley, I agree with you on the Super43 sensor.. I think they Oly should have gone all out for it (we had a glimpse of one with the GH1 sensor) but with the focus shift that opportunity was lost. Perhaps they (Oly) never even thought of it, even though I think the FT specs allowed for a larger sensor size than what we current have. I'm definitely surprised to see that some lenses like the 50mm focus better on the Em1, esp considering how slow it is on the E-series. I think we need to wait and see how things pan out with real world reviews. Personally, I think we won't see anything really better than the E5 till an EM2 shows up.

Its giong to be an interesting month or so waiting for the EM1 and K3 reviews ..
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Old Oct 11, 2013, 10:14 PM   #8
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more than a few seem to flow from Canon SLRs to m43rds
not an exodus but its as common to see people say they moved from 5DX to M1 as it was with M5.

note the problem with high end APS is the same conflict they have with mirrorless
they dont want to take out their perceived market leaders from the higher bracket to fund the market for high APS or high mirrorless

so we can expect mirrorless from C&N to always be that much less
likewise I guess no 7D replacement unless its FF, and no D400

interesting really
no high end APS has become a niche too
and thats why Pentax are getting some traction (just as M5 and M1 do)

Last edited by Rriley; Oct 12, 2013 at 4:33 AM.
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Old Oct 13, 2013, 9:52 AM   #9
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DP has some information on the K3. The sensor is a tad larger than Canon and Nikons APS-C models and is a bit smaller then them.

http://www.dpreview.com/previews/pentax-k-3
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