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Old Jan 19, 2005, 1:30 AM   #11
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bobc I understand how you might feel but I have to disagree with you because not long ago I was a newbie...but the difference between what I used to experience before the FZ20 came out is that all the forums have down graded quite a bit by this influx of newbies.

Let me explain..this is from personal experience.

you said "Some are saying… the newcomers should know how to google."

I have made that point several times...why...because I believe google is far more powerful than all the forums put together. If one googles they will see sites after sites explaining all the ABC from beginner to pro by well maintained and accurate websites. How do I know that..once again...I was a newbie and I have used google.

Remember.....the FZ cameras are treated as gods in these forums and they make the newbies feel such as nobody in the world understands how to use this cameras but us Panasonic FZ members in these Forums.....WRONG....aperture is aperture....ISO..is ISO...shutter speed is shutter speed....DOF is DOF, digital blending is Digital blending NO MATTER BRAND OF CAMERA one uses (cameras that offer manual mode!!!)

So...if you go to google and type aperture...camera iso....shutter speed and so on and so on...trust me...you will learn way more than any of us could ever explain to a newbie or anybody else...


you said "Some are saying… the newcomers should know computers as well as they do."

well.....if somebody buys a car...they should have a drivers license, if somebody buys a bike..they should know how to ride a bike, meaning,...that if one is completely ignorant of how to use windows xp or any other operating system, or matter of fact just plugging in a USB and understanding the meaning of USB...then maybe they should not be buying a digital camera and just stick to film.....and its not fair to us or to anybody babysitting somebody and explaining every single thing to the newbie...when its their responsibility to have understood the very very basics of computing before entering the digital world.

Its like asking the car sales man to to teach you to drive the car you want to buy.....wrong...learn to drive before buying a car

If you think about it...95% of people purchasing these cameras usually are newbies in the camera field and they are stepping into a different world (manual mode is confusing) and 50% of those people never used a computer on a regular basis and relied either on photo labs to print from their SD cards or just gave it to their kids to organize and print them...and how do I know that...most of my friends call me and ask me how to plug in the USB cable to their computer after buying a digital camera for the first time.

So is this place a FZ panasonic forum or a customer service forum for all newbies?

you said "Some are saying… the newcomers should not ask stupid questions"

When I was a newbie I didn't even know how to post a picture and failed miserably trying to post an image, I went to the steves help site, did a search, and couldn't figure it out. I was so frustrated so I pm photosbyvito and asked him how to do it and he explained to me and I was still confused. Is it a stupid question, maybe, but at least I tried and tried to to search and could not find an answer.

Now what is a stupid question?!!!! A question that is clearly marked and answered already right in front of the newbie, but what does he do...skip it, ignore it, and ask it themselves. Now is that selfish, stupid, lazy, egoistical, I don't know.

Why in the world have I not asked a question besides how to post a picture, because I took my time and read and read and read most of the posts that would not only answer my questions, but turning them into a viscous cycle of gathering new information. What I mean is that i would read a past post about aperture and by doing that I would learn new things and research them.

so to me stupid equals =====no patience.

I went from buying a FZ1 because it was on sale and read good reviews to practically giving advice to semi-pro to pro photographers in less than 4 months,...how....forum and google...forums and google...forums and google....forums and google...over and over and over again.

I never needed to ask a question because not only were they answered a thousand times over, I also searched DPR Panasonic forum and DCR panasonic forum which are 20 times bigger than this forum, but I love the intimacy of this forum than any of those forums.

"So are newbies or anybody never supposed to ask a question?!!!!!!"

I never said that, what I said is, like me who has never owned a digital camera, you will have a thousand questions and they key is to take your time and not rely on anybody to speed up or or enhance your learning curve, but to only rely on your patience to search and by doing so one will learn ever more than relying on the mercy of members answering a very specific question that may or may not be as accurate or in depth as you like.

I have nothing against newbies, never have never will and welcome them anytime and I am glad they bought the same FZ's that I own, and I know I am not popular with them, but I give good advice to them because I was in their shoes once and I believe as long as there is something new to learn...then I will be a newbie for the rest of my life till I learn everything, which we all know is impossible.

God helps those who help themselves.

I believe this forum only will improve by senior or experience members sharing new techniques, or sharing any kind of new info, such as "I did this and it made a huge difference".....for example I shared with everybody how to improve Infrared photography (learned accidently in google) or how to increase storage without buying more SD cards (learned accidently on google once again)....this is much better than on a daily basis answering questions that have been posted a thousand times over and bumping and bumping the posts that could of benefited the whole forum.

One more thing, never rely completely on this forum, go check out all the other forum on stevesforums.com...such as

landscape photos
nature shooting techniques
newbie help

I have learned so much in these forums, incredible amount of information no matter what brand of camera one uses.
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Old Jan 19, 2005, 4:35 AM   #12
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all i am ganna say is a big AMEN BROTHERS AND M8T'S

Put it out your minds...do like i did takea walk to the edge of town
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Old Jan 19, 2005, 7:55 AM   #13
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"so to me stupid equals =====no patience"

Well said, Rezajune

Youv've got to crawl before you learn to walk. There are so m any online tutorial sites to gleam info from its mind boggling. Searching before posting is the only way to go... Somewhere someone has posted, if not the identicdal question then one mighty darn close... AND it was answered byy those who have the experience to answer it.

I'm still a "newbie", probably always will be (where's the end of the learning curve?) My suggestions to those just starting out:

1. SEARCH... and SHOOT

2. Start a log of every photo taken so you have a record of what you've accomplished.


4. Using PE2 or PS or whatever software you have print contact sheets to go along with your log.


6. Get a copy of "Understanding Exposure (revised edition)" by Bryan Peterson. Probably the best 20 bucks you'll spend this week.


8. SEARCH.....


"Only 3 posts but an unknown number of daily visits"

And start a notebook of all the articles from this and every other site you find interesting/knowledgable.

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Old Jan 19, 2005, 8:51 AM   #14
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This is a very fine line indeed.

As someone one month into ownership, but around four months in reading, I don't know on what side to err.

I personally fall much farther on the side on 'go find it yourself', because it is very true that most answers are waiting to be read this very moment, so why waste yours and the replier's time?

On the flip side, how can we communicate that to people without making them 'scared' to get involved. They should hesitate but not to the point of simply never asking a real stumper in his/her mind.

For example, I started using the FZ20 to take indoor gym shots of my son's basketball games. I know enough of the basics to run it open ap. and short shutter and ISO 400 and knew that I would have to use noise reduction and correct levels in post processing. The results are still not that great. I went to Steve's sports forum and browsed around to find that any good results you will probably need a DSLR with high ISO 1000+ to get good results, and predictive autofocusing would be nice as well! But, in the back of my mind I still was asking, maybe I am missing something on the FZ that will get me where I want to be. But, to be honest, I have been reluctant to ask this specific FZ question so I wouldn't be dumped in that stupid question newbie bucket. Make sense?

Once again, a fine line. I don't 'suffer fools' well at all and I totally get the hair pulling frustration at those that refuse to even read the thread they are adding to. We can't let that frustration level push those with the knowledge I so cherish on this forum to walk away in to the sunset (metered 90 deg from the sun and probably digitally blended, right? hmm not sure (yet)). But, we will need to give some latitude and play the loving parental role sometimes and give answers where it makes sense and most often gently steer them to the idea that the answer lies within. And if they don't get it then bring down the Hammer of Ignorance.

Ok, enough of that, I'm running out into the cold to get some bird shots.

P.S. Thanks to those that spend his or her time to give a word of encouragement or lend a critical eye, and especially to those that do the research from numerous locations and pull it all together so that we may all succeed. Seriously, thanks a lot.
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Old Jan 19, 2005, 9:25 AM   #15
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like I said, this topic is nothing new and I am glad that Bobc brought it up. The more we discuss the more civilized we get, the better off we are no matter what the discussion is.

Just look at the guide to newbies I wrote on DPR a long time ago.

nothing new......but something new to others.

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Old Jan 19, 2005, 9:50 AM   #16
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I fully agree with Reza here.

I have started wondering. When I began taking pictures, I was using a simple point 'n shoot camera. Ideal to start with. No A/S/M modes or what so ever; just take the picture, get used to ISO settings etc. A true 'crawl' cam. After I got some idea of what ment what, I moved on to a more advanced cam, with all the manual stuff; and knew how to use it.

I am just not sure if an FZ is a goodcam to begin your photographic 'career' with. I Believe an FZ is not a good point 'n shooter. It proved way more easy with the simple one.The FZ is praised in every single review. So, many people just buy it for that. But thewell thought praise comes from the peoplewho know how to take pictures. If you don't know, it's gonna be a tough way learning, andunderstanding why exactly it is such a great cam.


Isn't joining a forum like joining a club? If you join a club, you come to share the experiences and the fun; And to get better at what you were already doing.


Impatience is just anotherpart of the human nature. A harsh reaction is no social smart behaviour; Clear, straight language must be spoken; But tactful.

Cheerio! GB
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Old Jan 19, 2005, 10:06 AM   #17
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True...there are folks out there that aren't technically oriented. So those folks should just feel free to post their questions.

Actually, my first ever post was a simple one in Q & A, about movie mode.... this one ..


and nobody even replied to it. So I was thinking that not too many people must frequent this site. But later on, I found that many folks are just concentrating on posting as many photos as they can.

However, I have seen some nice people that try to answer questions...and are truly helpful about it. I appreciate that kind of thing a lot.

While some folks are technically oriented, there are those like squirl that aren't too clever in some areas...such as flashing a cat in the eye using a camera flash at a distance of around 12 inches. This just goes to show that some people may be smart in some areas...but not in others.
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Old Jan 19, 2005, 11:06 AM   #18
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I never desired to own a camera of my own until I bought the FZ10 in June (after tons of research), and folks, I'm 45 years old. Now, I've fallen in love with photography and with this camera.

I knew nothing about cameras, shutter speeds, etc, but between reading many different online tutorials, reading this forum (and the yahoo FZ10 users group), studying library books on photography, and tons of experimenting, I've gotten pretty good. I'm still a newb, but now people come to me to ask advice.

Don't get me wrong, the camera does have its "features" - but so do all the others I've tried (I have several friends with Nikons, Fujis, and Olys), and I wouldn't trade my fluzi for any other camera (well, maybe for an FZ30 :-)). Most often, the complications are due to my lack of knowledge, and I'm working on that (I do wish they'd fix the gain up for Manual mode when using an external flash :-)).

I say all that to say this:
  1. if the only thing a person can say is something negative, why not just remain silent? It's more civil, and actually quite painless.[/*]
  2. we're all new at something, all the time - parenting, cameras, whatever - so we should be humble and kind to each other[/*]
  3. it is true that some people should take more responsibility for themselves, as in studying and searching - but maybe they are, when they're asking questions (when new, it's hard to know where to start!), and we need to be nice when we encourage them to study and google.[/*]
  4. "newbs" need to be nice as well, in how they ask and follow up
This forum belongs to all of us, and we should enjoy it, and get a good feeling from helping and being helped.

Good luck, all!
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Old Jan 19, 2005, 1:03 PM   #19
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If you have ever held an infant in your hands and been trusted by his/her parents to do so, I believe that you will be on Bobc's side.

If you have ever held the hand of an elder as she/he has exited this life for a better place, I believe that you will be on Bobc's side.

If, on the other hand, you believe thatnewbies "should" know...

how to take photos

to google

to...(fill in the blank)

then I feel sorry for you.

If you ever serve in harm's way, as Bobc has honorably done, and you return to "the world", you might begin to understand what the best of this forum is all about.

It is the community of the forum that, ultimately, defines its greatness.

It is not our photos nor our knowedge.

It is our collective kindnesses bestowed and extended that count.

It is our willingness, our opennessto share our knowledgethat counts.

On this forum, there are several folks with whom I have shared personal info.

I trust my gut with respect to these folks.

They would be welcome in my home anytime and have in fact been invited.

I have also received invitations to visit.

My late grandmother often said...

"Everyone brings joy to a room,most by their entrance, some by exit."

So, this forum member challengeseach of you...(as he challenges himself each day)


"look for the good"

"to bring joy into our metaphorical room (forum)."

I close now with a quote from Bill Cosby, who as a seasoned paramedic in a film entitled Mother, Jugs and Speed, counseled a young, distraught paramedic played by Raquel Welch:

"That is the trouble with you. People don't suffer the way you want them to."

All good medicine,


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Old Jan 19, 2005, 1:09 PM   #20
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You are not one that I was refering to. I am at work now, and cannot go into detail. I will post a more detail response this evening.


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