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Old Mar 20, 2006, 3:31 PM   #11
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nooner wrote:
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A lot of former Panny UZ users went with KM. I did. AS rocks

I did, too. Got the KM5D for $649, including two zoom lenses ranging from 18-300 mm (27-450 equivalent), 512 MB high speed CF card, and a large camera bag. Could not resist the deal, although I had just gotten the FZ30 a few weeks earlier. I love that the KM5D has in-camera Anti-shake, avoiding the high price of IS lenses. And the quality of the images is fantastic. Here is a shot I took this weekend at the zoo.Makes for a gorgeous 13x19 super sharp print. There is no better value on the market. And if the $1300+ price is for the L1 body alone, a Leicaimage stabilized zoom lens wouldbring it up to the $2000 bracket and really price it out of myinterest range.


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Old Mar 20, 2006, 5:34 PM   #12
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beautiful, k-m rules!

where did you get that terrific deal, rduve?



getting back to the l1, i don't get what on earth goes about in the heads of the people that make the strategies for these machines' marketing. i mean, isn't it obvious for them thatwith the "myth" of canon and nikon, the bulk of thedslr buyers will go for that instead of paying more for the only dslrthat panny has to offer many years after the above mentioned manufacturers have released their first dslr models?

i mean, that's just common sens. people ain'tgonna pay more for something that doesn't havethe appropriatebackground to it when they have an alternative, no matter the publicity and the specs.
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Old Mar 20, 2006, 6:36 PM   #13
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Thank you. I got lucky on ebay to get that deal with a refurbished body and used Sigma lenses. But Samy camera is selling them new with the 18-70 lens kit for $599 after mail-in rebate. So, they are pretty inexpensive even if you don't score a super deal like I did. I agree with you on the Panny marketing. In order to be a major player in the DSLR market, they should be very aggressive as far as pricing is concerned to compete with more established brands. But so far, it is all speculation anyway. To me, the CCD based IS is a must from now on, after using it in my Minolta. Why spend hundreds extra in IS lenses when the technology is available to have it in the body?
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Old Mar 20, 2006, 7:01 PM   #14
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it might be guess work but when looking at the price they have the oly e330 for then one might not be so far away from the truth when saying that the most probable price for the l1 will be at around 1200$ (give or take a couple of hundreds ).

i guess that both oly and panny are thinking that live preview is a great selling point for a dslr. my senses tell me different. i mean, a pro will never go for the live previewas a primo buying characteristic and, second,a photographer thatmakes the step from prosumer to dslr will naturally pick themost affordable machine with the best specs. live preview is a great thing butthinking that for that aloneone is supposed to pay hundreds of dollars more than the competition then that is an insult to the buyer's intelligence.

ofcourse, i'm speaking mainly about the e330 and i'm thinking that the l1 will follow inits marketingfootsteps. after reading the dpreview insights on the e330 my high hopes regardinga future purchase of the l1 where all but shattered.

the simple fact remains. most new dslr users are photo enthusiasts such as myself. well, to tell the truth, i couldn't give a rat's ass that they sell the l1 with a leica or whatever as long as the price is right and the quality is that ofan dslr but i will give that same rat's ass if the price of the body is 1000$ and adding to the lens' of another (at least) 1000$. that's already way over budget. few can afford such sumes of money and the few that do, i guarantee you, will go for the canons or nikons out there. i would too if i'd be swinging a few grand.

in conclusion, panny would be a great fool to think that live preview and leica branded lenses will sell their stuff. the funny fact is that the price will sell it more than anything else. that is, at least, my opinion on the matter.
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Old May 9, 2006, 1:36 AM   #15
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Yeah, I've got to admit, though I love Panasonic and my FZ30, if the L1 were as, or more expensive than a Cnon 30D I'd probably head towards the Canon. I've seen what they can do, I'm comfortable with the Canon brand and I know they give reliable results... reliably... Well you know what I mean.

I'm most certainly not 'loaded' so if I were going to spend that much money (30D is $2300 and D200 is $4000 in Australia) I would simply have to go with something I'm more sure of. I think I echo the thoughts of many people in my position.

But being an FZ30 owner I know how important IS is so I'd blow it all off for a KM 7d. Or the Sony equivelent.

I think that if Panasonic are going to go for gold straight off the line they wont' have any 'win's for sometime.




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Old May 17, 2006, 7:21 PM   #16
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I'm kind of hoping that by the time the L1 is realised that Panasonic would have adjusted ths price according to the market at that time, esp now that the Canon 30D with a kit lens is just £899 inc VAT. I know that Leica D lens is going to be pretty special and paired with the L1 produce some stunning images but they will still need to pitch it at a reasonable price point £1000 including the lens or prospective buyers and current FZ users will go elsewhere.

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Old May 23, 2006, 3:01 PM   #17
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I think USD 1700 is reasonable price for kit (body and lens). The body should be the same or a tad higher than Oly E330 due to better built and more complicated design. The lens itself will cost higher than Oly EZ 14-54 due to its OIS. The Oly EZ 14-54 is highly regarded lens and it is comparable to Nikkor 17-55 DX and EFs 17-55 (Which 3 times more expensive). Thus if Leica D 14-50 as good as Zuiko 14-54, and its price not exceed USD 700, it will have excellent value/performance.

Btw, do not compare Leica D 14-50/2.8-3.5 to any Canon kits. Despite all canon kit lenses are slower, they're all sucks (severe PF and you need to stopdown at F/8-F/11 to get sharp capture). Olympus kit lenses and Nikkor kit lenses are much better in this regard. You need L lenses if you go with Canon and hurt your wallet.
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Old May 27, 2006, 11:58 AM   #18
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Hi Zoe

I think $1700 USD = £915.00 for the L1+kit lens is a pretty nice price, although I can see Pana pricing it at £1700 in the UK. If its priced at £1200 I'd still think it was a good price point although i may just do a long weekend trip to NY and buy the cam in the US and do a street shoot as a test while I'm there!

I priced up a similar Canon setup to the L1:

The nearest Canon lens to the Leica D I think is the Canon EF 24-105mm f4 LUIS which retails between £700-870 here in the UK so thats approx. $1400-1617USD.

So the equivalent Canon setup, knowing that Pana is pitching the L1 at the Canon 30D at UK pricing:

Canon 30D (body only): £800.00 + Canon EF24-105LUIS: 870 = £1670

from BHPhotovideo:

Canon 30D (body only): $1349.00 + Canon EF24-105LUIS: $1250.00 = $2599.00

Even if we look at say the Canon 350XT:

In the UK
Canon 350XT(inc kit lens) + Canon EF24-105LUIS = £1370.00 or $2574USD.

From BHPhotovideo, the Ef24-105 is $1250.00.

Canon 350XT = 669.00 (inc $100 rebate) + EF24-105LUIS ($1250.00) = $1919.00

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...ughType=search

CHEERS

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Old May 28, 2006, 2:11 PM   #19
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Quote:
I think $1700 USD = £915.00 for the L1+kit lens is a pretty nice price, although I can see Pana pricing it at £1700 in the UK. If its priced at £1200 I'd still think it was a good price point although i may just do a long weekend trip to NY and buy the cam in the US and do a street shoot as a test while I'm there!
They've got competition from other manufacturers, too (as already mentioned in this thread), and the competition is just starting to "heat up".

Pentax will be launching a DSLR model with Shake Reduction later this summer that works with every lens you can buy for it. It's going to have a suggested price of $699, including a kit lens.

http://www.steves-digicams.com/pr/pe...-k110d_pr.html

Of course, the Konica Minoilta DSLR models have built in anti-shake, too.

Sony will be launching at least one DSLR model this summer that can use Minolta AF lenses (and I suspect the first product announcements are likely to hit within the next couple of weeks).

Here in the U.S., you can buy a Konica Minolta Maxxum 7D, including an 18-70mm f/3.5-5.6 lens for $699 right now, giving you a 35mm equivalent focal range of approximately 27-105mm (about the same as the Leica 14-54mm lens would give you on a 4/3's based system). You can probably find the 5D for less now at vendors that still have it in stock.

OK, so perhaps the quality of that particular lens isn't comparable to the Leica (depending on how good it turns out to be). But, the kit lens is really not too bad, and you've got other choices available, too (including lenses from Sigma, Tamron and Tokina).

Heck, you can buy a lens like the Minolta 24-85mm f/3.5-4.5 on the used market for not much over $100 (giving you a 35mm equivalent focal range of around 36-127mm on a KM DSLR. This one tests quite well on MTF charts and is usable at wide open apertures. It's rapidly becoming my favorite "walk around" lens on my KM 5D.

If I need something brighter, I usually go to a prime like a 28mm f/2, 50mm f/1.7 or 100mm f/2 (even though I've got a couple of brighter zooms). The anti-shake works with them, too; and I've got ISO speeds up to ISO 3200.

I wouldn't be surprised to see some interesting surprises from Sony either, as far as the lens lineup they'll have available when they release product specs for the first Sony Alpha DSLR.

Yes, the Leica is probably going to be a very nice lens, and there are pros and cons of having the stabilization in the lens versus the camera body. But, they'll want to make sure they don't price themselves out of the market, given competition, if they want to sell a lot of them.

An average consumer is going to compare prices, and will probably see that it's a lot more money to go with a stabilized lens solution, compared to available alternatives, especially if they don't already have an investment in Nikon or Canon gear (since you're comparing prices for Nikon and Canon stablized lens solutions).

Of course, there will always be a niche market for those kinds of lenses if it is priced too high for the average consumer to afford it. We'll just need to wait and see.

Sony has already announced it's intent to capture more than 25% of the DSLR market over the next few years, and you don't take marketshare away from competitors when you're the "new kid on the block" without a product that's going to attract buyers with some distinquishing features. I'd expect an in body stabilization system that works with any lens you buy for it to be one of them.

There are pros and cons to any system, and many photographers may appreciate the 4/3's design, allowing smaller and lighter lenses for equivalent focal range and brightness.

Then again, we're seeing a lot of new "Digital Only" lenses being launched for other camera brands (although they won't be quite as small and light as a lens designed for the smaller sensors used in 4/3's system bodies for equivalent quality, many consumers won't care, especially given price differences in lenses if the 4/3's manufacturers aren't careful).

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Old May 28, 2006, 7:18 PM   #20
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Well put, Jim. Essentially, thoseare myopinions too. I would like to add that Panny and Olympus are making a mistake thinking that Live Preview on a dSLR will sell their cameras. From what I read in magazines and on the net, the Live Preview on the Oly E330 isn't even that good. I mean, I wouldn't want that on my dSLR for sure. I find it annoying.

I am also expecting great things to come from Sony's corner. Too bad K-M had to abandon their camera business but on the other hand it's a good thing a giant like Sony is taking their legacy onwards.

Personally, I do not trust the 4/3 system. I mean, why buy a DSLR with a smaller sensor (and more pixels that just add to the noise problem) when for the same price (or even lower) one can get an APS-C sensor camera that can go as far as ISO 1600 and still have workable results. It appears that the Oly is OK up to ISO 400 and from there onwards it's pretty much close to unusable. I mean, that is pretty low for a dSLR. To make matters worse, Panny has never impressed with their noise reduction approach (ofcourse we're speaking here about their prosumer line). I like their design best for their upcoming dSLR and if it were up to just that I would definetely have waited for the L1.

It is like you said, Jim, the only way to get a big market share is to come with awell priced productthat will convert the user into that particular make of cameras manufacturer becauseI don't think that aCanon or a Nikonuser will jump ship. It is all about convincing the folks that are just now getting into dSLRs that your product is best fit (especially pricewise) for their needs. And frankly, there already are Nikons, Canons,Pentaxes and even K-Ms that apply to those needs. Pretty soon Sony will enter the ring as well. Speaking for myself, I find the Oly dSLR prices very very steep for the little bonuses thattheir productsoffer compared to othermanufacturers\ dSLRs.

For sure, time will tell, but my feeling is that if one camera maker doesn't hit it spot-on from the first time, it's getting increasingly harder to change buyers' opinions afterwards especially nowadays with the widespread information available literally at one's fingertips.
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