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Old Aug 21, 2006, 3:48 PM   #11
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HarjTT wrote:
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One of the first things that came to mind when the L1 and its price was first announced was "Have Panasonic made a mistake by not providing existing Pana users with an affordable upgrade path to a Panasonic DSLR ?". Having aimed the L1 squarely at the upper end of the market and seeing the amounf of interest (or lack of) that the L1 has created within the various Panasonic user forums principally due to its price I'd say that they have made an error in not announcing an entry level DSLR. Such a camera would have provided an incentive for existing users to take the first step with a panaleica based SLR. Instead they're looking at the alternatives available at the $1000 bracket and particularly appealing will be the Sony alpha, the new D80 and Olympus E500/E330. To me thats a shame and a lost opportunity, and once people start building up a system its very hard to swap.

Just my two cents, euros and pennies

Cheers

HarjTT

:O



The short answer is yes.... I think it was a mistake not to provide an upgrade path from their Ultrazoom platform. Having said that, they may not have been their goal.

Maybe they were looking to attack at a higher end premium consumer market, if so I don't think the L1 can compete. I'm not suggesting it is a bad camera, it just doesn't have a reason to buy it over something else in its class. If you are the new kid on the block of DSLRs, you need to offer something to win over the competition. Some manfacturers doit with features,othersdo it with price. Giveme a reason to buy a Panasonic.


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Old Aug 21, 2006, 9:46 PM   #12
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The initial reason I had focused on an L1 was because of the match needle aspect which in turn means visible shutter speeds and aperture. That's all I've ever had in my film SLRs.Now it simply means getting used to a menu now that I've been turned off by a couple of L1 reviews.
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Old Aug 22, 2006, 1:01 AM   #13
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Andrew Waters wrote:
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The initial reason I had focused on an L1 was because of the match needle aspect which in turn means visible shutter speeds and aperture. That's all I've ever had in my film SLRs.Now it simply means getting used to a menu now that I've been turned off by a couple of L1 reviews.
I'm not sure what you mean by visible shutter speeds and aperture. How are they not visible?
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Old Aug 22, 2006, 3:48 AM   #14
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Well my reason for wanting the L1 were simple:

1. Design - I wanted a camera that didn't drawn attention to itself and nearly all DSLR's on the street do. That rangefinder look of the LC1/D2 and now the L1 allows you to be discreet and I've seen streetphotographers using the LC1 and nobody bats and eye lid as they think its an old duffers camera.
2. Image Quality - If PanaLeica could produce exceptional images from the LC1/D2 esp the jpg files out of the camera which a lot of reviewers and users have consistenly pointed when it was released have considered some of the best. The L1 could only improve on this - it would be tough to do but if it had better IQ than the LC1/D2 but this time with a larger 4/3 sized sensor and as an SLR this would be a system that I would gladly join.
3. Lens - Any successor to the LC1/D2 would have an exceptional Leica designed lens and from the LL review they haven't disappointed. Tack sharp, edge to edge and good contrast and colour either wide open or at the tele end.
4. Quality - Panasonic/Leica's QC seems to be pretty spot on. I have not heard of any real problems in the last two years with regards to the build quality (body and lenses) with any of the digicam's that they manufactured.
5. IS - Pana's mega OIS works and I'm used to having it.
6. Liveview - I still want this feature in my camera but unfortunately not the way its been implemented by Pana so far.
7. Smaller and lighter camera - They haven;t quiet managed to do this but its still lighter than the D200 and 30D.

It looks as if they do have a cheaper DSLR on the way becuase the lens line up outlined for 2007 which has at least 2 consumer grade OIS zooms arriving in 2007 but i think they should have had a two track approach right from the start. The entry into the DSLR arena with the L1 aimed at its current market and an entry level DSLR/EVIL cam with the 14-150 OIS zoom to tempt the FZ users looking to upgrade.

Cheers

HarjTT

:| :O


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Old Aug 22, 2006, 10:47 AM   #15
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meanstreak wrote:

''I'm not sure what you mean by visible shutter speeds and aperture. How are they not visible?''

One recent reviewer mentioned the L1 as having''match-needle'' with regards to exposure. Since the reviewer didn't specify exactly what this meant from his perspectivein terms of layout, and, further, match-needle exposure is what I have on myCanon F1N from the early eighties, the aperture and shutter speeds are fixedindicators inthe view finder; always available for immediate use as opposed to using a menu to get there:Looking through my viewfinder, on the right of the frame is a vertical column of aperture readouts with the exposure needle visible, reacting to light; the ''match'' indicator is a little ''O'' that moves through the aperture column asyou turn the shutter speed dial on top of the camera.The shutter speeds are seen at the very bottom of the aperture column as you turn the shutter dial to ''catch'' the needle.You have a match-needle exposurewhen the ''O'' is halved (3-9 o'clock position)bythe exposure needle which is reacting to light. The specific part about this exposure is you have to depress the shutter button half way to get a reaction from the exposure needle. This is cumbersome because you had to take away yourfinger from the shutter releaseto line up the match-needle exposurein the viewfinder.

That was then. I'm sure, if the L1 has match-needle exposure thenit surelydoesn't involve a set-up like that.

Having said that, I'm sure there areways on DSLRs to have shutter and aperture visible at all times but from what I've read, there is a menu involved to get there. And this may be the case with the L1 since this aspect wasn't specifically noted in the review other thana match-needle exposure, which is explained above.


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Old Aug 22, 2006, 11:34 AM   #16
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Andrew Waters wrote:
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meanstreak wrote:

''I'm not sure what you mean by visible shutter speeds and aperture. How are they not visible?''

One recent reviewer mentioned the L1 as having''match-needle'' with regards to exposure. Since the reviewer didn't specify exactly what this meant from his perspectivein terms of layout, and, further, match-needle exposure is what I have on myCanon F1N from the early eighties, the aperture and shutter speeds are fixedindicators inthe view finder; always available for immediate use as opposed to using a menu to get there:Looking through my viewfinder, on the right of the frame is a vertical column of aperture readouts with the exposure needle visible, reacting to light; the ''match'' indicator is a little ''O'' that moves through the aperture column asyou turn the shutter speed dial on top of the camera.The shutter speeds are seen at the very bottom of the aperture column as you turn the shutter dial to ''catch'' the needle.You have a match-needle exposurewhen the ''O'' is halved (3-9 o'clock position)bythe exposure needle which is reacting to light. The specific part about this exposure is you have to depress the shutter button half way to get a reaction from the exposure needle. This is cumbersome because you had to take away yourfinger from the shutter releaseto line up the match-needle exposurein the viewfinder.

That was then. I'm sure, if the L1 has match-needle exposure thenit surelydoesn't involve a set-up like that.

Having said that, I'm sure there areways on DSLRs to have shutter and aperture visible at all times but from what I've read, there is a menu involved to get there. And this may be the case with the L1 since this aspect wasn't specifically noted in the review other thana match-needle exposure, which is explained above.

I know what match needle is, just didn't know what you meant by theshutter speeds and aperture not being visible. On my 5D and 7D, the shutter and aperature is visible as soon as you pick up the camera on the LCD and in the viewfinder as soon as the sensor detects your eye within proximity of the viewfinder. I believe the light meter only responds when you depress the shutter halfway but I'll double check it later. I would think most cameras work similiar, but I'm not sure about each model. Have you tried downloading the Panasonic manual or is it not available online?


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Old Aug 22, 2006, 11:40 AM   #17
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HarjTT wrote:
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Well my reason for wanting the L1 were simple:

1. Design - I wanted a camera that didn't drawn attention to itself and nearly all DSLR's on the street do. That rangefinder look of the LC1/D2 and now the L1 allows you to be discreet and I've seen streetphotographers using the LC1 and nobody bats and eye lid as they think its an old duffers camera.
2. Image Quality - If PanaLeica could produce exceptional images from the LC1/D2 esp the jpg files out of the camera which a lot of reviewers and users have consistenly pointed when it was released have considered some of the best. The L1 could only improve on this - it would be tough to do but if it had better IQ than the LC1/D2 but this time with a larger 4/3 sized sensor and as an SLR this would be a system that I would gladly join.
3. Lens - Any successor to the LC1/D2 would have an exceptional Leica designed lens and from the LL review they haven't disappointed. Tack sharp, edge to edge and good contrast and colour either wide open or at the tele end.
4. Quality - Panasonic/Leica's QC seems to be pretty spot on. I have not heard of any real problems in the last two years with regards to the build quality (body and lenses) with any of the digicam's that they manufactured.
5. IS - Pana's mega OIS works and I'm used to having it.
6. Liveview - I still want this feature in my camera but unfortunately not the way its been implemented by Pana so far.
7. Smaller and lighter camera - They haven;t quiet managed to do this but its still lighter than the D200 and 30D.

It looks as if they do have a cheaper DSLR on the way becuase the lens line up outlined for 2007 which has at least 2 consumer grade OIS zooms arriving in 2007 but i think they should have had a two track approach right from the start. The entry into the DSLR arena with the L1 aimed at its current market and an entry level DSLR/EVIL cam with the 14-150 OIS zoom to tempt the FZ users looking to upgrade.

Cheers

HarjTT

:| :O


Not for your specific reasons, but I too wanted the L1 because I liked some of the features of the FZ30 and was hoping they would carry them over into the L1. Also I opted not to wait for the L1 and bought the KM 7D, which I am very happy with. I partly owe the decision on the 7D to the Image stabilization on the FZ30. I think once you have IS and realize the advantages through actual usage, it is hard to give up. I would not but a camera without it and as far as I'm concerned, it has to be part of the body, since I am not willing to pay for it in each lens. That is not to say that it is the only reason for me buying the 7D, but it was a major factor.


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Old Aug 22, 2006, 4:45 PM   #18
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HarjTT wrote:
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It looks as if they do have a cheaper DSLR on the way ...

And that's why I think they were smart to start with premium, specialty camera.

It's easier to go downmarket than to go upmarket.

By establishing themselves at the high end of the market, even if it's not terribly profitable, it gives them credibility and reputation when they introduce a more affordable camera. When they introduce a new camera (which I've always assumed would be the case), they will be proceeded by their reputation as maker of the high end DSLRs with Leica lenses. This will give them entry into market that can be tough to crack.

As I've said, the consumer DSLR market is packed with good cameras. You can only cut a pie so many ways. And it's hard to distinguish your product. Had they gone DIRECTLY into this market, people would ask, "Why should I buy from a consumer camera-maker like Panasonic when I can buy from Nikon, Canon, Pentax or Olympus?" The L1 will give them the status as a serious camera company and that will put them in a position to compete at all levels.


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Old Aug 22, 2006, 9:55 PM   #19
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Brent Gair wrote:
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By establishing themselves at the high end of the market, even if it's not terribly profitable, it gives them credibility and reputation when they introduce a more affordable camera. When they introduce a new camera (which I've always assumed would be the case), they will be proceeded by their reputation as maker of the high end DSLRs with Leica lenses. This will give them entry into market that can be tough to crack.

As I've said, the consumer DSLR market is packed with good cameras. You can only cut a pie so many ways. And it's hard to distinguish your product. Had they gone DIRECTLY into this market, people would ask, "Why should I buy from a consumer camera-maker like Panasonic when I can buy from Nikon, Canon, Pentax or Olympus?" The L1 will give them the status as a serious camera company and that will put them in a position to compete at all levels.

Your logic is contingent upon them actuallybecoming successful in establishing themselves as a serious DSLR company.

Your question "Why should I buy from a consumer camera-maker like Panasonic when I can buy from Nikon, Canon, Pentax or Olympus?" also applies to the high end market. Why should anyone buy the Panasonic over a Nikon orCanon? I have asked this question a few times and no one ever comes up with a reason.

There is one way to almost ensure their product will sell... it's called a major price reduction. They may also stand a chance if they sell it as a body only deal.


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Old Sep 24, 2009, 5:34 PM   #20
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Default I just bought one

Great unique camera, with excellent glass. I can't wait to own it. Not into the micro 4/3 stuff, I am more of a traditionalist mind and build quality fanatic nowadays.

Add this to my growing collection, and one that I will cherish.

Next stop, Leica M9 (someone call the paramedics).

Carl
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