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Old Sep 18, 2006, 9:48 PM   #71
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I bought FZ50 because want to get use with SLR type before really jump into the world of DSLR! And this FZ50 really make me feel comfortable because no need to carry many others thing. Outdoor shooting was marvelous, but a little bit high noise when using a higher ISO. But for my level (amateur) it's good enough.
So feel free to visit my photo blog site and see pictures taken with my FZ50 … click here
http://aidaziq.fotopages.com
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Old Sep 18, 2006, 10:27 PM   #72
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thats the FZ50 review actually greg, with a Leica lead in photo
Luminous_Landscape wrote:
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"Far be it from me to tell camera maker's how to run their business, but isn't it about time that this sillyness stop? Cameras like the two digicams reviewed on this page have, in my opinion, pushed too far in terms of pixel count. Their 8MP predecessors, the FZ-30 and LX-1 where recognized as noisy cameras, and now we have upped the stakes to 10MP. Yes, Panasonic has provided its new Venus Engine III, which purports to produce lower noise images. But to my eye, all that it does is allow this new generation of cameras to provide a higher pixel count with comparable noise to before. In other words, no real net gain for the consumer except for the ability to make somewhat larger prints, which he or she are unlikely to do all that often.
Wouldn't it have made more sense to use the Venus III technology to make the current 8MP cameras less noisy? I think so. But then, that doesn't sound as sexy as being able to sell more megapixels, now does it?"
Riley
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Old Sep 19, 2006, 2:43 AM   #73
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yeah I knew it was the FZ50...but didn't notice the Leica photo


this is from DP review on the FZ50, conclusion page

"I completely understand why Panasonic chose to jump from 5 to 8 to 10 megapixels in three generations of its flagship FZ camera - it's a lot easier to sell a camera on pixels than picture quality, and the average consumer (and it must be said the average camera store buyer) uses megapixels above all else when sorting cameras into categories. Panasonic's marketeers knew full well that with 10MP 'consumer' SLRs on the horizon (and 10MP the new high end for compacts too) the FZ50 needed a headline 'resolution' that kept it near the top. I do, however, think it was a mistake to think that the FZ50 buyer is the 'average' consumer, unable to base decisions on anything but megapixels..."

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/pana...z50/page19.asp

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___

and I agree...the 10mp race is obviously on now...and unfortunately thanks to the advertising world many people truly believe that (besides their brand favorites) megapixels is the way you buy a camera. I work part time for a retailer (no, nothing on the order of an FZ30)...and I constantly here people say, "more megapixels means better pictures." Nobody ever asks me which has the better lens or which works in a variety of lighting or which focuses the fastest or is better for sports or nature. I can promise you, that if you want to make LOTS of money...find a name brand camera company to market a fully automatic camera with a tiny plastic lens and small LCD...sell it for $99 and you won't be able to keep it on the store shelves...lastChristmas we had a garbage Polaroid 5mp with a fixed tiny plastic lens, we sold out in 2 hours...I was strongly suggesting to the customers that the extra $30 for the Kodak was worth it...much better lens..."but it's only 4mp! Myfriend says more MP means a better picture!" I explained to them that pixels are just dots, they have nothing to with the picture quality, only how the photo will look at a given size....They don't tell you how the colors will look, how flesh tones will look, how good or fast the camera focuses, how slow the shutter lag is, how well the camera handles light and dark, and so on and so on....and if you are not cropping, not printing larger than 4x6 or are only viewing them on your computer...4 mp works just fine...Isometimes got the...he's and idiot stare and they left with the Polaroid shaking their heads at me.

I also believe that the camera manufacturers realize that they will make more money on higher capacitystorage cards

gregg
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Old Sep 19, 2006, 3:20 AM   #74
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................but surely, Gregg, this doesn't mean that if a camera has lots of megapixels it's no good ! If that were the case then Nikon with their 12mpx and Hasselblad with their17 (is it) mpx are on a losing streak!

I think that the point is that if - as you rightly mention in your examples - one aspect of a camera is highly advanced but the rest of it is rubbish then it's a recipe for disaster. I'm all for more mpx - it's the only way to go as far as I, personally, am concerned. It may not be necessary for most of my shots but there is the odd one where it would give me more options to print.

I think that the point is that the rest of the camera should be able to do justice to the mpx figure.

Let the mpx race continue!

Frank
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Old Sep 19, 2006, 3:28 AM   #75
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yes its truly sad that more Mp does not necessarily equal more quality, particularly Phranque with small sensors
as for the ills of marketing
go to any site that sells / advertises / or supports the camera market, sites perhaps like Steves reviews. They are inevitably organised in Mp, in P&S and dSLR, and then by brand. Now think about customer behaviour, lets say they dont know a thing about what they are looking for.

So they poke about, they watch the prices, they come to a category they can afford. If you are fortunate enough to have a camera brand within the first few letters of the alphabet, you will get more hits than the Zenit brand. At some point or other the facination of the experiment in finding a camera sees them hit on something they can afford that they dont mind the look of, or the experience is so overwhelming they hit the local mall and shop there.

Despite all the efforts here and elswhere, the truth is we are a tiny part of the market. True some marketing worth can be found on the back of the 'pro' definition, Canon live by that. That is not to say all that they make is the best you can get.

The issue for FZ50 as the reviewer points out comes down to this, look around these forums, one of the most active segments of the forum (and nicest to get along with if I might say) is the Panasonic movement. You name it, someone here seems to be into it, and understandably they have pride in their camera.

If Panasonic continues to ignore the quality end of these cameras, then people here will just upgrade to something else when that time comes. many waited to see the first review of 50, almost not believing what they saw they waited for review #2. Having cancelled FZ50 as an option a few have already bailed out to further their craft with something else or continue with what they have.

Its not rocket science...its common sense, but sadly, common sense and marketing just dont get along.

Riley


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Old Sep 19, 2006, 4:41 AM   #76
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Hi Riley,

I'm not saying that there is not a marketing problem but then you can see the problem faced by manufacturers and reviewers. As you say cameras are often listed in sections such as Mpx, P&S, DSLR etc, but what other way can they be listed?

Ideally perhaps they should be listedin categories like 'good, medium, rubbish' - but the lawsuits would be flying all over the place and in any event whether the performance of a camera suits or not is so subjective.

More mpx will not always go hand in hand with noisy images - the whole business of digi-photography is less than ten years old (as a mass market) and development continues at break-neck speed. There will always be photographers who demand nothing more than 6-8mpx sensors - and that's fine. Equally there will be those who thirst for more, like myself!

In the same way there are those who want a Mercedes, and others like myself who are happy with a skate board.

I just think it's wholly wrong for folk to scream at a manufacturer mainlybecause he's produced a 10mpx camera and is perceived to be in a 'race'. It's another thing altogether if the camera isn't very good.

I think that, in principle, the FZ50 is a giant step forward, but it may need a few tweaks according to those who've tried it. Maybe Leica will do the tweaks. If Leica come up with the goods I think it will be the first serious competitor for the DSLRs.

More mpx suits me.

Yes - the Panasonic forum is a healthy place to exchange ideas, I like it!

Frank


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Old Sep 19, 2006, 1:54 PM   #77
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Quote:
Frank writes................but surely, Gregg, this doesn't mean that if a camera has lots of megapixels it's no good ! If that were the case then Nikon with their 12mpx and Hasselblad with their17 (is it) mpx are on a losing streak!
I'm not upset for the manufacturer to get give us 2 more megapixels....but if they don't control noise or use NR that degrades the picture at 10mp....why bother? Only the 10mp marketing people benefit. It looks good in a tv commercial. I am always interestedin the "next generation" to see if they listen to the reviewers or the people...and it seems thatmanymanufacturersup themegapixels while removing something that the camera was known for or people loved....that is far more important to me than if it's 8 or 10 megapixels

Olympus andCanon are great examples of that (yes, I know they want us to buy their DSLRs)

and that's exactly why my next camera will not be an olympus (again)

Also, the kind of customers I deal with don't know or care what a Hasseblad is. These are cutomers that want to spend 100-250 dollars on a camera. In one case $49 on a junk argus (640X480)digital in a plastic pack...and then asked me if he can print photos from this. Of course I told him he can, but they won't look much better than a driver's licence. I ask a customer two things: are you cropping (most ask me what that is) or are you printing larger than 4 x6?

I recently sold a clearance printer/canon 3mp bundle for $129...she was reluctant because of the 3mp...then came back a few days later to buy the last 2 for graduation presents...she said she could believe how good the photos were. (And that canon camera did take great photos)

But what really shocks me is how many people never use most or all of the features on their camera. When a customer asks for a card, they invariably have no idea what type their camera uses or even stranger, had any idea that they could select the quality of the image. Whatever the manufacturer defaulted to was where they left the settings. Most people have no idea that the number of photos you can put on the card you are buying is determined by the mp setting (plus compression/detail of the image)

just my opinion

gregg


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Old Sep 19, 2006, 4:56 PM   #78
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langkawi_7 - nice photos, you've bought a very good camera - i've got the fz30 and it's great and from the sounds of it the fz50 is also - i think some of the fz 50 photos look more colourful - which is probably a good thing. I wouldnt worry about the noise issue or smoothing, at the end of the day - if we wanted professional size prints buy an dslr - though 13"*19" should be possible.

At the end of the day i've taken some of my favourite photos on my k750i phone, the camera is great because ive always got it.

Have a look at http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/howto.htm

Also i like axel bruck - quite old books but quite interesting - makes you think about composition etc - cheap on ebay!

That said the fz30/50 lets you bolt all sorts of stuff on it and try things out and it is much smaller so you are more likely to take it with u.

I would like the fz30 to have 100 megapixel with 60x zoom lens, that would be great, but i would still take loads of rubbish photos - but could do it further away! But a bit more thought in the photo makes al the difference!
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Old Sep 20, 2006, 3:28 AM   #79
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Well, yes, I can see that you must get a little fed up with dealing with customers like that.

If I look back many years, I was probably like that myself when I went in a shop to buy my first camera. I had a mind full of figures and stuff, determined to get the best I could afford even if I didn't know for certain which side of the camera you pointed at the subject! There is just so much to learn.

I don't think I will go down the DSLR route, for me personally it's too messy and web pages like this are a big put-off:

http://www.betterphoto.com/article.asp?ID=91

I just don't fancy having that sort of hassle, so, as I mentioned, I'm waiting to see what Leica come up with.

Let's hope that development continues and the noise problem is sorted out, I'm sure it will be. In the mean time all we can do is make frustrated noises, I guess! It's a minefield, Gregg !!

Frank
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Old Sep 20, 2006, 12:59 PM   #80
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hmm
I just heard a rumour, and maybe this is a good place to hide it, rather than give it air in a new thread
panasonic going to buy olympus

Riley
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