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Old Oct 11, 2003, 3:48 AM   #1
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Default Question for Panasonic Bob

Hi Bob,

I am considering whether to purchase two 128MB cards or one 256MB card.

Your 128MB Panasonic SD card is rated at 2MB/sec on the package, whereas the 256MB card is 10MB/sec. Does this mean it would be faster to take pictures using a 256MB panasonic card than the slower 128MB card? What exactly is this speed measuring - transfer speed, write speed or something else?

Thanks very much in advance!
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Old Oct 11, 2003, 11:06 AM   #2
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You can also try a rebranded Panasonic from Simpletech or Lexar. Thay may turn out to be cheaper.

Just keep in mind that Lexar also OEMs the slower Sandisk SD cards.

See also:
http://www.pdaavenue.com/forum/showt...?threadid=1587
http://www.palminfocenter.com/forum/...TOPIC_ID=15704
http://www.digit-life.com/articles2/...d-test-p2.html
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Old Oct 13, 2003, 3:28 PM   #3
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But it depends on how Panasonic detects the card to enable the burst mode, no? There might be a "brand" flag on the card's ID that might be different on Simpletech or Lexar cards. I wouldn't invest in a card till we get confirmation from Bob on whether you need a Panasonic-brand card to get burst mode, or just a "fast-enough" card.
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Old Oct 14, 2003, 6:54 AM   #4
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As I'm reading this thread I'm getting a horrible chill....
... I suspect you guys are right. Panasonic might be planning to boost their SD card profits by deliberately sabotaging the high speed performance of the FZ10 with non-panasonic brand SD cards.

over at dpreview someone has reported the FZ10 is much much slower with non-panasonic SD cards. I've not noticed this with the FZ1 though.

I hope panasonic is playing fair.
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Old Oct 14, 2003, 8:07 AM   #5
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err, it wouldn't be that Panasonic are "sabotaging" anything, it could just be that the FZ10 etc requires a fast SC card to write in the burst mode as the press releases etc have been spouting. Naturally Panasonic can't claim that only their SD cards are fast enough because there may be others out there who currently or will have in the future a card as fast as the Panasonic branded one.

Can anyone with an FZ1 or FZ2 comment on Panasonic versus non-Panasonic branded SD card use and the associated speed you get from them when using the camera, both to take normal shots and in burst mode?

I am particularly interested if anyone can tell the difference in speed when actually using the camera between a 10Mbps Panasonic SD card (256MB) and a 2Mbps Panasonic SD card (128MB or lower)? Is the time between shots the same when using both cards or different? ....
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Old Oct 14, 2003, 8:32 AM   #6
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PLEASE - stop drawing your own conclusions - it's most frustrating!

Panasonic's SD cards are unique in that our read / write / copy speed actually increases with the size of the card. This is not "a given" with other cards.

With digital still cams (DSC's) even the slowest speed of the 8 / 16 / 32 MB cards allows them to work just fine - even in burst mode - with no degradation in performance. Buying a larger card, with faster specs, will not improve the performance of the digital camera.

So by now you are wondering why are they faster. Well you may have heard that we've introduced some other products, like our DVD recorders, that are capable of recording both MPEG2 and MPEG4 video to an SD card. To record MPEG2 video in real time the higher speed is required, as is the larger size.

I'll do my best to respond as quickly as possible, but even suggesting that we had some devious agenda is very counter-productive to those people who look to these discussions to learn.
Thanks
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Old Oct 14, 2003, 10:54 AM   #7
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Default SD cards - request for clarification

Quote:
Originally Posted by Panasonic
PLEASE - stop drawing your own conclusions - it's most frustrating!
I believe this mostly happens when information is scarce or ambiguous.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Panasonic
Panasonic's SD cards are unique in that our read / write / copy speed actually increases with the size of the card.
Is the Panasonic 512MB SD card faster than the 256MB card? They are both advertised as 10MB/sec so is there any other speed difference? Can you please post (or point us to) some specs? Thanks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Panasonic
This is not "a given" with other cards.
What about cards from Simpletech, Lexar and TDK? It's been said that they are rebranded Panasonics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Panasonic
With digital still cams (DSC's) even the slowest speed of the 8 / 16 / 32 MB cards allows them to work just fine - even in burst mode - with no degradation in performance. Buying a larger card, with faster specs, will not improve the performance of the digital camera.
Let's see if I understand correctly. Are you saying that there will be absolutely no difference in the FZ10's preformance whether I'm using a fast Panasonic 512MB card or a slow one (a Sandisk for example)?

I also have a bit of a problem reconciling this statement with your earlier post in a different thread:
Quote:
Originally Posted by [url=http://www.stevesforums.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=68322&highlight=#68322
previously[/url] Panasonic]We have no intentios of using CF cards. They are significantly slower than SD
So, is there any advantage of using a fast Panasonic card in the FZ10 (besides possibly faster upload times to the PC)?

I actually think that there is. You need the 10MB/sec in order to push 1.5MB JPEGs to the card in 6+fps bursts. But then, my math could be wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Panasonic
I'll do my best to respond as quickly as possible, but even suggesting that we had some devious agenda is very counter-productive to those people who look to these discussions to learn.
Everybody has an agenda and "devious" means different things to different people. Panasonic is not a charity organization.
Anyway, as I mentioned above, you can successfully battle conspiracy theories with hard facts.
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Old Oct 14, 2003, 2:07 PM   #8
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Alexo stated:
I believe this mostly happens when information is scarce or ambiguous.
<RESPONSE>
Please refer to my initial post where I clearly explained that any information Iím at liberty to share with this forum must have been previously released or announced by our Sales people.

Alexo stated:
Is the Panasonic 512MB SD card faster than the 256MB card? They are both advertised as 10MB/sec so is there any other speed difference? Can you please post (or point us to) some specs? Thanks.
<RESPONSE>
The 512MB cards are slightly faster than the 256MB. Our SD card design includes the faster read / write / copy times that will be necessary to use them with real time MPEG2 recording. The faster access speed will not be an advantage to digital still cams as they are designed along industry guidelines that use the original SD card spec. At this time, the MPEG2 spec appears to be settled at 10 MB/sec. Our spec verifies that our larger cards meet that spec, but in reality they actually exceed it.

Regrettably, the actual measured specifications have not been published so Iím unable to share them with you at this time.

Alexo stated:
What about cards from Simpletech, Lexar and TDK? It's been said that they are rebranded Panasonics.

<RESPONSE>
Honestly, I have no personal knowledge of who manufacturers other brands. I do know that this sort of thing does occur in Japan but here in the U.S. I just donít know. I can say that with other products we offer we have included statements saying that some SD cards will not work properly. This only applies when MPEG2 video is involved where higher transfer speeds are required. It DOES NOT apply to DSCís.


Alexo stated:
With digital still cams (DSC's) even the slowest speed of the 8 / 16 / 32 MB cards allows them to work just fine - even in burst mode - with no degradation in performance. Buying a larger card, with faster specs, will not improve the performance of the digital camera. Let's see if I understand correctly. Are you saying that there will be absolutely no difference in the FZ10's preformance whether I'm using a fast Panasonic 512MB card or a slow one (a Sandisk for example)?

<RESPONSE>
Thatís correct. Each mode is tested with cards from 8-512MB. 1 GB cards are currently being tested at the factory in Japan where they duplicate our testing.

Alexo stated:
I also have a bit of a problem reconciling this statement with your earlier post in a
We have no intentions of using CF cards. They are significantly slower than SD
<RESPONSE>
Thatís correct.
Panasonic was one of the leading pioneers in SD technology. For our 2004 model year, all of our products have integrated SD technology in some fashion. One of our reasons for proliferating its use is its excellent transfer speed, especially with larger cards. CF cards are larger and consume more power. With DSCís CF cannot provide the speed to allow our burst mode to capture 7 images in just 2 seconds. They are also much smaller so physically designing them into our products becomes much easier. Note their ever decreasing price on the retail market and youíll see that they where several DSC manufactures are headed.

ALEXO stated:
So, is there any advantage of using a fast Panasonic card in the FZ10 (besides possibly faster upload times to the PC)?
<RESPONSE>
The way it was explained to me was that while our cards are faster, the interface they are used with must be designed to use the parallel technology. Many of the external readers still use what might be thought of as serial technology; hence no speed increase is realized.

Alexo commented:
I actually think that there is. You need the 10MB/sec in order to push 1.5MB JPEGs to the card in 6+fps bursts. But then, my math could be wrong.
<RESPONSE>
In theory you are correct, but you forgot to factor in the internal buffer. That buffer is what limits the burst mode to 7 FPS.

Alexo commented:
Everybody has an agenda and "devious" means different things to different people. Panasonic is not a charity organization. Anyway, as I mentioned above, you can successfully battle conspiracy theories with hard facts
<RESPONSE>
No, we arenít a charity organization, but I donít see other manufacturers sitting here debating you. Understand that my purpose here is to provide assistance with our digital cameras. Iím here to clarify operating issues, not to be placed in defensive situations justifying why a design criteria was or was not done to one customerís expectations.

Clearly the other people here have realized this and appear to be appreciative of what information I am able to share. The ďhard factsĒ that you often request are too often information that I can provide at this time. How many times must this be explained?

And finally, this morning I read a post you made, complaining that you have not received the brochure you requested. I sent you a private message asking where you were located so that I can mail you a copy. Iíll be happy to print off a copy. No response as yet, though you have responded to several other posts.

I really appreciate the feedback but itís clear that you find fault in any response. Since Iím not receiving such rebuttals from others, please clarify your agenda?
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Old Oct 14, 2003, 4:51 PM   #9
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Default Trying to set the record straight

Quote:
Originally Posted by Panasonic
Alexo stated:
I believe this mostly happens when information is scarce or ambiguous.
<RESPONSE>
Please refer to my initial post where I clearly explained that any information Iím at liberty to share with this forum must have been previously released or announced by our Sales people.
I was not complaining, just stating a fact. When there is lack of info, people will jump to conclusions. Never blamed you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Panasonic
Regrettably, the actual measured specifications have not been published so Iím unable to share them with you at this time.
If and when this info is released, could you please drop a note?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Panasonic
The way it was explained to me was that while our cards are faster, the interface they are used with must be designed to use the parallel technology. Many of the external readers still use what might be thought of as serial technology; hence no speed increase is realized.
There's a benchmark that clearly shows a speed difference between various SD cards with a particular reader.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Panasonic
Alexo commented:
I actually think that there is. You need the 10MB/sec in order to push 1.5MB JPEGs to the card in 6+fps bursts. But then, my math could be wrong.
<RESPONSE>
In theory you are correct, but you forgot to factor in the internal buffer. That buffer is what limits the burst mode to 7 FPS.
Yes, silly of me to forget the buffer. But then, after the buffer fills up, the data has to be transferred to the card (or it may be done in parallel, does not really matter to the issue). I assume that the 10MB/sec figure will make a difference in the witing time between bursts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Panasonic
Alexo commented:
Everybody has an agenda and "devious" means different things to different people. Panasonic is not a charity organization. Anyway, as I mentioned above, you can successfully battle conspiracy theories with hard facts
<RESPONSE>
No, we arenít a charity organization, but I donít see other manufacturers sitting here debating you.
There is no debate here. You are answering my (and other people's) questions to the best of your abilities given the constraints you operate under. And, although I do not praise you from the rooftops, I do appreciate it and try to add "thank you" notes where appropriate.
The fact that other manufacturers' representatives do not offer the kind of help that you do will ultimately hurt them. Your explanation about the pre-release firmware is what stopped me from buying from a competing manufacturer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Panasonic
Understand that my purpose here is to provide assistance with our digital cameras. Iím here to clarify operating issues, not to be placed in defensive situations justifying why a design criteria was or was not done to one customerís expectations.
Did I ever ask you to justify design criteria? If there's a possibility that some features are not set in stone, I will try to influence the decision by requesting this or that. Or are you saying that customers shoud just close their mouths and open their wallets?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Panasonic
Clearly the other people here have realized this and appear to be appreciative of what information I am able to share. The ďhard factsĒ that you often request are too often information that I can provide at this time. How many times must this be explained?
Bob, this is a public forum, not an official Panasonic support site. I ask questions in the hope that somebody will be able to answer them. Hopefully that would be you (or another Panasonic representative) but I am realistic. I am sorry if I came across as if I think you're under any obligation to answer my questions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Panasonic
And finally, this morning I read a post you made, complaining that you have not received the brochure you requested. I sent you a private message asking where you were located so that I can mail you a copy. Iíll be happy to print off a copy. No response as yet, though you have responded to several other posts.
That was an "observation", not a "complaint". That department is probably overwhelmed with requests...
There was "no response" from me because there are no private messages to me on this forum as I type this. Maybe a DB issue here or just a slow turnaround, I don't know.
Anyway, I thank you for the offer. Since private messaging here appears somewhat unreliable, I would appreciate it if you could drop me a note at a hotmail email (name: zevel_organi). I am uncomfortable posting my main email here but I'll check that one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Panasonic
I really appreciate the feedback but itís clear that you find fault in any response. Since Iím not receiving such rebuttals from others, please clarify your agenda?
Huh? The bulk of your responses were appreciated. I may be seeking answers more agressively than some but there is no intention to denigrate you, the FZ10 or Panasonic. Could it be that you prejudge me?

My only point which "faulted" anything was about the ISO100 fountain pic (which, IMHO, should never been made available). After you explained that it was made using beta firmware, I left the issue alone.

The post about the D2H was ironic and I indicated so. Twice (a smiley in the original post and an explanation in a reply). Your taking issue with it, even after the explanation, is strange. If an apology will help, you have it.

My "agenda" is simple. My birthday is getting close and the FZ10 seems like a very sweet camera. I am just trying to make sure I have all the info I need to make a decision.

Peace,
Alex.
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Old Oct 14, 2003, 5:43 PM   #10
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I think we all need to take a break here. Why don't we all take up a hobby for awhile and go out and snap some photos. Maybe when we come back the FZ10 will be waiting for us.

cheers, mates
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