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Old Feb 5, 2004, 8:41 PM   #11
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You're 100% correct. It is legal - it's called product liability, related to reliability - and the verbage we use follows accepted standards. The statements are reviewed by Engineering, Marketing and Legal.

A product's limitations should not be confused with the customer's expectations.

The temperature specifications define the minimum and maximum operating temperatures at which performance specifications were measured at. If the product is used outside this range. it's performance can vary. It does not say it stops working. These specifications also factor in relative humidity which, when combined with extreme temperature variations, can produce enviornments that push electro-mechanical devices to their extremes.

Again, please send me the statements used with similar competitive products so I can use these to lobby for changes.
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Old Feb 6, 2004, 12:05 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Panasonic
You're 100% correct. It is legal - it's called product liability, related to reliability - and the verbage we use follows accepted standards. The statements are reviewed by Engineering, Marketing and Legal.

A product's limitations should not be confused with the customer's expectations.

The temperature specifications define the minimum and maximum operating temperatures at which performance specifications were measured at. If the product is used outside this range. it's performance can vary. It does not say it stops working. These specifications also factor in relative humidity which, when combined with extreme temperature variations, can produce enviornments that push electro-mechanical devices to their extremes.

Again, please send me the statements used with similar competitive products so I can use these to lobby for changes.
Bob, I have no experience with competing products.
And since I am happy with my FZ1 so far, I see no reason to buy another camera just to compare its user's manual to yours.

As a user, I would like to know in what conditions I can use my camera without damaging it.

The manual says that the camera will perfom to spec between 0C and 40C? Fine, But what if it is -20C outside? Or -40? Can I use it? Will the lens jam? Will the LCD crack? Or will it just perform sub-optimally?

Who can give me this information? So far it seems that Panasonic wouldn't.
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Old Feb 6, 2004, 8:30 AM   #13
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"As a user, I would like to know in what conditions I can use my camera without damaging it.
The manual says that the camera will perfom to spec between 0C and 40C? Fine, But what if it is -20C outside? Or -40? Can I use it? Will the lens jam? Will the LCD crack? Or will it just perform sub-optimally?
Who can give me this information? So far it seems that Panasonic wouldn't."

Alex,
As I explained, the measurements we perform and the performance of the camera is measured between 0-40 degrees C.
If the camera is used outside this temperature range will it fail?

Yes, it's "possible" - by that I mean that the chance of temperature related problems with the specified range would not be an issue. Outside the range it becomes more of an issue.

Will any aspect of the camera's operation change? Most definitely! What features and to what extent? That's unknown.

Who can give you the info? An independent testing service that you contract. PLEASE try to understand that I am not trying to be disrespectful or insensitive to your request. I am asking that you understand that the consumer electronics industry has standardized guidelines that we must follow.

Using these standardized procedures places all our products within a common operating enviornment. Extreme measurements, outside our normal parameters, are simply not available from our company.

Furthermore, IF it were determined that a sample of a product could operate to say -20C, there would be no certainty that anothersample of the same product would do the same.


I will say that in cold temperatures battery life tends to suffer an lubricants will stiffen up. The uniformity of each CCD's pixel output varies more at higher temperatures, so in sense colder is better for a CCD chip. On broadcast cameras the CCD chips, especially the "blue" chip is often cooled by a solid state device for this reason.

What I am asking you for are pages from other models that describe the very specs you request. Honestly, I do not believe you will find it. If they exist, I could try to use it to lobby for such measurements to be done. Honestly, it's unlikely but I am willing to try. Do we now see eye-to-eye?
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Old Feb 6, 2004, 11:10 AM   #14
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OK, let's simplify the question.

Two quotes from the manual (trimmed):

Specifications
Operating Temperature: 32F104F (0C40C)
Operating Humidity: 10%80%


and

Limited Warranty (For USA Only)
The warranty ALSO DOES NOT COVER damages which occurred in shipment, or failures which are caused by products not supplied by the warrantor, or failures which result from accidents, misuse, abuse, neglect, mishandling, misapplication, alteration, faulty installation, set-up adjustments, misadjustment of consumer controls, improper maintenance, power line surge, lightning damage, modification, or commercial use (such as in a hotel, office, restaurant, or other business), rental use of the product, service by anyone other than a Factory Servicenter or other Authorized Servicer, or damage that is attributable to acts of God.


I am not a lawyer and not even a native English speaker but according to my limited understanding of the text, it can imply that the use of the FZ1 in the winter (if the temperature falls below the freezing point), the summer (in warm countries, where the temperature may rise above 40C) or on a beach (where the humidity can surpass 80%) can void the warranty.

That is my main concern.

Best regards,
Alex.
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Old Feb 6, 2004, 1:01 PM   #15
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Alexo -
I really want to rant here but I'm biting my tongue. IMHO you are being a pain about this.
To be plain and simple, and civil, your question was answered the only way Bob can answer it,
and you have read the manual and the Panasonic stated warranty.

I would say that if you are not happy with the answer or Panasonics stated conditions, then get rid of the camera and replace it with one the gives you the "Specifications" and the "Warranty" that YOU want. Such is the life of the consumer.

And may the 'winds of good fortune' be with you in your search.

'nuff said.'
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Old Feb 6, 2004, 3:25 PM   #16
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Wait a second guys...
I am not a lawyer and not even a native English speaker but according to my limited understanding of the text, it can imply that the use of the FZ1 in the winter (if the temperature falls below the freezing point), the summer (in warm countries, where the temperature may rise above 40C) or on a beach (where the humidity can surpass 80%) can void the warranty.

That is my main concern.
<RESPONSE>

OK, I can answer this.
Using the camera in the hot Florida sun or on a cold Totonto night would not normally cause any damage. I'd assume you would have it in your pocket or in some way protected. Leaving it in your trunk at where it's 120 degrees or -20C will cause damage and would not be covered.

Let's say we got a camera in for repair with visible moisture damage, or where accumulated moisture, through condensation, froze and damaged the lens. Such failures are easy to verify and in that case would not be covered. Let's say you took the camera in the shower or in a pool (don't laugh - I've seen this) and the camera sustained damage. It too would not be covered.

I ski and I take my cameras on the slope. It's under my jacket and no problems occur.

The terms of our warranty address damage that can occur when the camera is used in such situations. Under normal use, if you protect the camera - you should not have any problems.
OK?
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Old Feb 6, 2004, 3:35 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Panasonic
OK, I can answer this.
Thank you.
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Old Feb 6, 2004, 10:17 PM   #18
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Default Can the FZ10 be used when it's raining, drizzling, etc?

Can the FZ10 be used when it's raining, drizzling, misting, etc? Or only when there's no precipitation?
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Old Feb 7, 2004, 12:38 PM   #19
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What I was trying to say about the published temperature ranges is that chips and sensors have a small operating range (at least chips do and I assume CCDs do as well). Heat gets to them very quickly but cold, to some unknown low temp, can actually help their performance occasionally.

Given all other things equal, any device that uses chips will have the same temperature operating range and that range may be the limiting factor no matter what the other parts of the device can handle. And the temperature operating range of any brand of digital camera will be about the same because all chips have about the same range.

There! That's what I meant -- I think!! :roll:
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Old Feb 7, 2004, 6:51 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmgiv
What I was trying to say about the published temperature ranges is that chips and sensors have a small operating range (at least chips do and I assume CCDs do as well). Heat gets to them very quickly but cold, to some unknown low temp, can actually help their performance occasionally.

Given all other things equal, any device that uses chips will have the same temperature operating range and that range may be the limiting factor no matter what the other parts of the device can handle. And the temperature operating range of any brand of digital camera will be about the same because all chips have about the same range.

There! That's what I meant -- I think!! :roll:
If that were the case, you would not be able to drive a car in most parts of the world. The engine management is controlled by chips in virtually every car made today. Driving in Death Valley in July, I would think the under-hood temperatures would exceed 40C by a long shot. conversely, if you were to park your car in the NWT in January, I would think that it might get a little colder than 0C.And theses places are in North America. Also what about satellites? In outer space, it gets rather chilly, wouldn't you say?
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