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Old Feb 18, 2004, 9:44 AM   #21
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All that being said, it should be up to the photographer if they want to get more or less pictures on a media card...even if it's just one great, big huge TIFF file!

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The customer doesn't decide the design of the camera, but the market can influence it. That might be true if the "customer" was buying 5000-10000 pieces per month.
You have said a lot in that short statement. The customer should decide the design of the camera. If Panasonic isn't listening to its customers, why not? Is Panasonic willing to just go with whatever their engineers think the market or customers should want -- all the way through the expense of research, design, production, distribution, marketing...only to have it flop because the customers aren't interested at all in that particular direction? Please tell me this isn't the way Panasonic really operates!

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It shouldn't be too difficult for the engineers to have three or four different compression settings instead of just two. I mean, it might be difficult to do that now that the camera has reached production, but would've been rather easy to do during the research/design stages (one would think).

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Yes, one could conclude that, but the reality is that it's a very time consuming process that is very costly. After ANY change is made the entire prodct must be retested. It must meet the approval of several departments. Add up the man hours and the cost - big bucks! Easy to suggest, but most people have no concept what's involved.
I wasn't referring to changes, I was referring to initial design. There's no reason why the engineers couldn't include different or additional compression settings in the original camera design, and it wouldn't have been very difficult.

I'm getting at least a little tired of what appears to be the standard Panasonic stance that customers are stupid and don't understand what they're asking for when we make suggestions. You need to understand that the customers ARE the experts -- we're the experts at knowing what we want and what we're willing to buy. Given that Panasonic relies (at least in the US) almost completely on word-of-mouth marketing for their digicams, who do you think is buying these cameras or advising others to do so? VERY technical people, who are internet savvy and willing to do some extension research on their purchase choice, and even go to great lengths to buy the product since it isn't available in a Wal-Mart, Sears, BestBuy, Circuit City, etc. Until Panasonic gets more of a Sony-like market share and store distribution, it wouldn't be wise to assume that the customers purchasing their digicams are not technically skilled, savvy, and more intelligent than the average consumer who actually listens to the BestBuy clerks recommendation for a digicam. I think you guys need to give your customers a little more credit in the intelligence category.
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Old Feb 18, 2004, 9:47 AM   #22
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Didnít they add another level of compression to the FZ1/2 for this very reason? Someone must have thought the pictures would look better.

No.. The FZ2 added aperture / shutter priority. No compression addition. Another possibility is that some of you may be cropping during printing. Doing so effectively reduces the overall pixel count. Crop in the viewfinder, not in the printing. Here again, Bruce Dale had some stunning examples of 11x14's shot on the FZ1. Absolutely NO artifacting.
Yes, the FZ1 firmware upgrade did change the compression of the "Fine" setting -- they reduced the compression and the file sizes are bigger because of it.
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Old Feb 18, 2004, 10:04 AM   #23
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Speaking of Sony...how's their higher-quality Betamax doing?
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Old Feb 18, 2004, 10:34 AM   #24
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Speaking of Sony...how's their higher-quality Betamax doing?
It was doing quite well in its Betacam incarnation until it was supplanted by digital technologies.
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Old Feb 18, 2004, 11:32 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by jmgiv
Speaking of Sony...how's their higher-quality Betamax doing?
It was doing quite well in its Betacam incarnation until it was supplanted by digital technologies.
Not to mention that it is still in pocketed use to this day because of the higher quality (verging on professional) and small size that it provides.

However, that is a very good example of what I think that Panasonic is also doing. Sony came out with this new, great technology in BetaMax, but the consumers just weren't interested and wanted to stick with the format that they had already bought into (VHS). Prime example of a company pushing technology or pet projects/ideas of their engineers without consulting with their customers to see if there's even any interest. A company shouldn't wait to discover the interest factor until after they produce the product -- that's supposed to be the first step.

But what the heck do we customers know? We don't dictate design anyway....right?
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Old Feb 18, 2004, 1:08 PM   #26
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WHAT HAPPENED WITH THE FZ1?
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Originally Posted by Guerito
I'm doubting that there will be an upgrade coming after what happened with the FZ1, but among other things, number one on my list is a "Super Fine" JPEG setting. The compression on the FZ10 is far to high. I guess this was Panasonic's way of justifying the 16MB card they included with the camera. Why would they put a Lecia lens on the camera, then compress the $:!% out of the picture? But yet they want to be considered a contender against Canon and Nikon...go figure.
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Old Feb 18, 2004, 1:13 PM   #27
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WHAT IS THE ADVANTAGE OF THE HIGH COMPRESSION?
LOU


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Originally Posted by Guerito
Bob, I doubt that you can answer this, but I'll ask anyway. Will there be a similar update for the FZ10? Above all, I'm really disappointed with the excessive JPEG compression. It would be nice to give the customer another choice. I don't really need an uncompressed format, but the current level of compression is just to high, which defeats the quality of the Leica lens.
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Old Feb 18, 2004, 2:11 PM   #28
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BOB;


YOU SAID THE QUALITY PROBLEMS WE ARE MENTIONING ARE NOT DUE TO COMPRESSION BUT PROBABLY PRINTING

THEN LATER ON YOU WENT ON & SAID THIS ABOUT THE BEAUTIFUL NEW JERSY PRINTS:

"these were printed at the local Costco / PriceClub so we aren't talking about any special printing conditions

SEEMS CONTARDICTORY TO ME

ISN'T IT POSSIBLE THAT SOME HEAVY PROFESSIONAL TYPE EDITING MIGHT HAVE BEEN DONE BY THIS GUY TO GET HIS GOOD RESULTS.

ALSO IF I AM EXPECTED TO HAVE THE SKILLS & EXPERIENCE OF A PROFESSIONAL TO BE ABLE TO TAKE VERY GOOD PHOTOS WITH YOUR CAMERA THEN I MADE A MISTAKE. I WISH OLYMPUS HAD TOLD ME SOONER..

ANOTHER FACTOR I'D LIKE TO MENTION IS, THAT I'M A NEWBIE (NOT TO LOGICAL THINKING BUT TO DIGITAL PHOTOGRAPHY)
AND I HAVE LEARNED SO MUCH ON THIS SITE IN A FEW WEEKS FROM VERY KNOWLEDGEABLE & GRACIOUS PEOPLE ON THIS SITE.

THEY ARE THE ONES COMPLANING ABOUT THE COMPRESSION -
NOT FULL FLEDGED PROFESSIONAL PHOTOGRAPHERS WHO YOUR COMPANY DOESN'T MAKE MUCH MONEY ON ANYWAY.

DID YOU GO TO THE TROUBLE TO TELL YOPUR PHOTOGRAPHER ABOUT THESE CONCERNS WE HAVE AND ASK HIM TO COMMENT.

NO INSTEAD YOU INVITE US TO FLY TO NEW JERSEY TO LOOK AT THE PHOTOS DUH!

HERE'S MY TAKE ON IT:

YOU AREN'T LEARNING ANYTHING FROM THE VALUABLE FEEDBACK OF YOUR BEST CUSTOMERS. IN FACT YOU SEEM TO TRY TO ALIBI AWAY THEIR CONCERNS

AS A RESULT, FOR WHATEVER IT'S WORTH, IF THERE AREN'T SOME CHANGES REALLY SOON I DOUBT THAT MY NEXT CAMERA WILL BE A PANASONIC.

THE PROBLEMS ARE ONE THING BUT THE COMPANY REPS REACTION TO THE PROBLEMS ADDS FLAMES TO THE FIRE.


LOU LEDDA
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Old Feb 18, 2004, 3:02 PM   #29
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The customer should decide the design of the camera. If Panasonic isn't listening to its customers, why not?

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Chris-
When I say that the market influences products, "market" does not necessarily represent the requests of just those in this forum. Case in point...

Read the initial feedback on the DMC-LC1. On this board virtually all dozen or so people feel it's priced too high. In contrast, I spoke with well over 200 people at PMA who, after seeing and using it, had absolutely no issue with price.

FYI, Virtually all DSC manufacturers have some models that are not sold worldwide so your idea of one world market is not realistic in all cases. I won't pass judgement on what experience you have, but if you worked for any large consumer electronics company you would be aware of the issues that must be considered.

Understand that my reason for being here is to respond to technical issues, and not to respond or explain marketing policies. When I'm able I have no problem doing so but I tend to avoid such issues because they always see to end up right where we are now. I do so, often at night on my time so as not to interfere with my promary responsibility.

To suggest that we regard our DSC users as "uneducated" or "unimportant" is absolutely ridiculous. The fact that I am here and the fact that I was at PMA talking with end users clearly shows our willingness to listen and respond when possible. Please let me know which other manufactures are doing this?

You have to understand that while opinions expressed here may be valid, they don't necessarily agree with or represent what the rest of the market is doing. Is it realistic that the 10 or so people participating in this thread represent the entire market?

I do enjoy participating in these discussions and helping you guys out. I'd like to try and stay focused on assisting you with operatonal issues.
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Old Feb 18, 2004, 3:28 PM   #30
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YOU SAID THE QUALITY PROBLEMS WE ARE MENTIONING ARE NOT DUE TO COMPRESSION BUT PROBABLY PRINTING

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To elaborate, some software that comes with your printer may itself introduce artifacts when a large image is compressed to fit a smaller print. This was introduced as a possibility, not a definite cause.


THEN LATER ON YOU WENT ON & SAID THIS ABOUT THE BEAUTIFUL NEW JERSY PRINTS:
"these were printed at the local Costco / PriceClub so we aren't talking about any special printing conditions
SEEMS CONTARDICTORY TO ME
ISN'T IT POSSIBLE THAT SOME HEAVY PROFESSIONAL TYPE EDITING MIGHT HAVE BEEN DONE BY THIS GUY TO GET HIS GOOD RESULTS.

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Not a chance Ė I shot these myself and took them there. I inserted the SD card myself and had the untouched files printed. The point to the exercise was to see the untouched results a consumer would get without the benefit of any Photoshop magic.


ANOTHER FACTOR I'D LIKE TO MENTION IS, THAT I'M A NEWBIE (NOT TO LOGICAL THINKING BUT TO DIGITAL PHOTOGRAPHY)
AND I HAVE LEARNED SO MUCH ON THIS SITE IN A FEW WEEKS FROM VERY KNOWLEDGEABLE & GRACIOUS PEOPLE ON THIS SITE.
THEY ARE THE ONES COMPLANING ABOUT THE COMPRESSION -
NOT FULL FLEDGED PROFESSIONAL PHOTOGRAPHERS WHO YOUR COMPANY DOESN'T MAKE MUCH MONEY ON ANYWAY.
<RESPONSE>
Lou, with all due respect to those here, I speak from fact, having actual prints in my hand that I shot. Iíve been involved in many situations that have been inflated by comments made in similar on line discussions. How can I diplomatically say this?Ö Itís not uncommon for participants to jump in (in good faith) for what they feel might be added support. If the camera had an inherent problem Iíd expect that I would have been inundated with complaints at PMA Ė I wasnít. The cameraís performance and a wall of photos taken by our cameras made it a busy but most enjoyable 4 days.

Again, please donít take offense; Iím just trying to present you with the full picture.


DID YOU GO TO THE TROUBLE TO TELL YOPUR PHOTOGRAPHER ABOUT THESE CONCERNS WE HAVE AND ASK HIM TO COMMENT.
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The photographer for the prints I mentioned was ďMEĒ
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