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Old Jul 4, 2004, 3:00 AM   #11
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I completely agree Normcar, full manual control will work better than presets on ANY camera BTW, cameras can "see" northink!


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Old Jul 4, 2004, 4:21 AM   #12
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True or not,

1. the market for P&S is vastly bigger

2. P&S shouldn't mean a sacrifice in quality or functionality. There is clearly a big market for P&S Ultrazooms. (in fact, some might argue that P&SIS the market for UZ, as those who really want highest photographic quality wouldn't be inclined towards a UZ in the first place). Many people want the added advantage of IS 12x zoom for example, without the hassle or learning curve of ASM.

3. I bought my FZ10 as a camera that both I and my wife(and teenage son anddaughter)can use. I might use it ASM, she will always use it P&S.

4. if manufactures are going to produce P&S and Scene mode cameras, then they had better work as described (within reasonable limits). If folks find the scene modes doesn't work properly (and I mean not working properly e.g. by not setting a high shutter speed in sports mode, I don't mean guaranteeing a perfect photo everytime), then they should press Panasonic for a firmware upgrade.

5.plenty of cameras seem to produce great P&S and scene modepictures. My little Minolta F100 even does a great job of "intelligently" choosing the appropriate scene mode automatically, for example automatically using fill-in flash when it sees a portrait against a bright background so it can get the right exposure balance.

6. so far, my FZ10 has produced great P&S pictures. I haven't published many yet, but all these were P&S or Macro scene mode, apart from the night shot. http://www.wilkesworld.co.uk/photo_galleries.htm

7. you give the FZ10 a bad reputation by implying it is only any good in ASM. It might be appropriate for some shots, but shouldn't be appropriate for ALL shots as you imply. Most potential FZ10 owners will be looking for good P&S performance. You are putting them off. I find I get good P&S performance.
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Old Jul 4, 2004, 5:42 AM   #13
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Here we go:

1- True.

2- P&Salways means a sacrifice in qualityand functionality compared to manual control, example: try to shoot a white duck in a dark pool with a pure P&S camera (so no spot metering), the duck will be completely washed out! I (and many others) would have been forced to buy a DSLR if there were no UZ's on the market (this is my second after the Oly C-2100 UZ) with a good set of manual controls. I have used SLR gear all my life but am glad I don't have to carry a trunk full of lenses and camera bodies with me anymore. The only real advantage of a DSLR is it's large CCD size making shooting with higher ISO settings without much noise possible (making them ideal for sports photography (LOL)).

3- No problem, it works both ways

4- The sports mode on the FZ10 does try to give you the fastest shutter speed but will not set it's ISO rating higher than 100, you can override this by setting your ISO to the desired value in the menu if you want to.

5- Well, I hate auto flash cameras, what if I want the subject to be a silhouette in my picture? That's what I mean when I say camera's can't think.

6- Nice pictures, thanks for sharing them!

7- That's a lie, I never stated the FZ10 is only good in A/S/M, in answer to a question why the FZ10 has no landscape mode I replied that the FZ10 probably isn't primarily designed as a P&S camera. I also said that ANY camera will potentially give better results in manual mode compared to P&S mode.

The FZ10 hasgood P&S capabillities but really shines in the hands of a experienced photographer in full manual control mode.
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Old Jul 4, 2004, 6:06 AM   #14
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Lawrence, I have one comment/tip on your daylight Monaco pictures: http://www.wilkesworld.co.uk/monaco_2004.htm

In bright daylight the FZ10 and other camera's tend to overexpose (run out of dynamic range), a -2/3 EV setting will give you better results in those circumstances.

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Old Jul 4, 2004, 7:54 AM   #15
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Do you recommend setting the exposure to -2/3 and leaving it there?
Or changing for every shot?
Or perhaps changing for every scene? as in all the monaco shots were going to be in similar lighting conditions, so set it at -2/3 and leave it there (until the lighting conditions change).

I do look at the histogram, and most times it seems to be central without any evadjustment. Is that because the histogram is gettingslightly wrong, in that it is based on the metering which isalso slightly wrong?
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Old Jul 4, 2004, 8:42 AM   #16
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lawrencew wrote:
Quote:
Do you recommend setting the exposure to -2/3 and leaving it there?
Or changing for every shot?
Or perhaps changing for every scene? as in all the monaco shots were going to be in similar lighting conditions, so set it at -2/3 and leave it there (until the lighting conditions change).

I do look at the histogram, and most times it seems to be central without any evadjustment. Is that because the histogram is gettingslightly wrong, in that it is based on the metering which isalso slightly wrong?
No, only in bright sunlight as in the Monaco pictures. You can experiment with it, maybe you like -1/3 EV better. It is very important when there are white objects in the scene but generally all pictures look better with a -EV setting in bright sunlight.

The histogram still looks fine and the auto setting makes no mistakes but the CCD simply runs out of dynamic range. In the event a picture comes out of the camera a little to dark you can correct it in software afterwards, when to bright (washed out whites) the picture is beyond repair.

If you know how to work with levels & unsharp mask it's a good idea to keep in-camera settings for sharpness, saturation and contrast to low (=off) and post process in Photoshop or other capable software.

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Old Jul 4, 2004, 10:35 PM   #17
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lawrencew wrote:
Quote:
Do you recommend setting the exposure to -2/3 and leaving it there?
Or changing for every shot?
Or perhaps changing for every scene? as in all the monaco shots were going to be in similar lighting conditions, so set it at -2/3 and leave it there (until the lighting conditions change).
I haven't looked at your gallery yet, so this is just from my personal experience: Yes, I set mine to -2/3 and just leave it there. This has improved my P&S experience enormously. I've found that if I accidentally take a somewhat dark shot due to this, it can be corrected later. But with EV+0, blown highlights stay blown.

Quote:
I do look at the histogram, and most times it seems to be central without any evÂ*adjustment. Is that because the histogram is gettingÂ*slightly wrong, in that it is based on the metering which isÂ*also slightly wrong?
I think the histogram is off. Of late I've been checking the histogram and leaving a noticeable fully blank gap on the right hand side. When I check the picture after it has been taken, the histogram then goes fully up to the right hand side, and with a detailed examination later I find that some of the pixels are 255/255/255, ie 100% white. This is after going to some trouble to NOT have any fully white pixels.

As Klaas suggests, I'm going to experiment with LOW settings (for contrast at least) to see if this helps. Perhaps the camera at normal contrast setting is "helpfully" bumping up the levels so just a few pixels hit full white even when I'm trying to avoid that. I don't think I'll take up the suggestion to use LOW sharpening as you really have to post process if you use that, and I prefer to get it right in the camera.
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Old Jul 4, 2004, 10:54 PM   #18
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Leaving the EV at a -2/3 setting on an overcast day or inside a building will produce underexposed images, they can be corrected afterwards but will have more noise in the darker area's. In high contrast scenes (the white duck in a dark pool) I suggest using manual control or spot metering.

The preview histogram is a (very useable) prediction, so not 100% correct. The manual is clear about this:



[align=left]• The histogram in recording and playback may not match each other.[/align]


[align=left]• The histogram in this camera does not agree with the one displayed in image editing software on PC, etc.[/align]


[align=left]• The histogram in the recording mode is an approximation.[/align]



[align=left]Klaas Bloem[/align]


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Old Jul 5, 2004, 8:27 AM   #19
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I think I disagree with that. I leave it at -2/3 even if it's cloudy or in the shade. Indoors might be different but I haven't taken any indoor pictures since I worked out the flash isn't powerful enough, so I don't have any evidence to dispute your assertion.

The stuff in the manual about the histogram is the standard "your mileage may vary" stuff. My beef is that the difference between the histogram you see when composing and the one you get in the final shot can be quite large. Much larger than I can explain by it being "an approximation". I'm still experimenting though, so one day it may make sense.
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Old Jul 5, 2004, 12:49 PM   #20
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anomaly wrote:
Quote:
I think I disagree with that. I leave it at -2/3 even if it's cloudy or in the shade. Indoors might be different but I haven't taken any indoor pictures since I worked out the flash isn't powerful enough, so I don't have any evidence to dispute your assertion.
The pixels on a CCD need sufficient light to function properly. Larger pixels catch more light, that's the reason why the noise levels of a DSLR are lowcompared toour small sized high MP CCD's. Under exposed shots will render more noise than properly exposed ones. If you take 2 identical test shots in P, S or Amode on a cloudy day one wit -2/3 EV and the other without and view them at 100% on your monitor you will definately see a difference in noise levels in the darker area's.
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