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Old Jul 22, 2004, 12:53 PM   #21
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rosanna wrote:
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The 'problem' of darkening of the viewfinder just before exposure is similarly inherent in the shutter and aperture design (also dictated by the lens design) and cannot be fixed by firmware. It's not dissimilar to what you might see in a non-digital SLR under the same conditions.

Sorry, Rosanna, I think YOU are misunderstanding the problem.

Of course the viewfinder would darken as you closed the aperture for exposure. However, in the FZ10, the viewfinder darkens as you change the aperture settings, not just at the time of exposure. It is dark all the time if you choose a small aperture. Consequently you cannot compose your picture easily.

On a film SLR, you would often have button that allows you to stop down the lens to the chosen aperture so you can evaluate the depth of field. But it doesn't stop down the aperture for the entire time you are composing your image - just when you take it.

Panasonic could easily resolve this in firmware - not darkening the EVF or making it a menu option. And providing stop down on one of the buttons during manual mode
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Old Jul 22, 2004, 12:57 PM   #22
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rosanna wrote:
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- Rosanna

Am I just overly suspicious, but when someone like "Rosanna" comes along and for their VERY FIRST post, makes detailed comments like this, doesn't it kinda make you think they might just be a Panasonic insider?

Despite the "but my connection with the company is sufficiently distant that I'm not constrained in the same way." I wouldn't be surprised if this was just another Panasonic support or marketing person, or even just another persona for Bob, defending himself....

I can well imagine that Bob has been running around inside Panasonic saying "someone help me out here".
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Old Jul 22, 2004, 1:11 PM   #23
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The design of the FZ series of camera is based around a lens whose optical characteristics presuppose a small CCD. Small CCDs are inherently noisy for reasons embedded in the laws of physics. FZ series cameras will always have a tendency towards noisiness (the new versions attempt to conceal this with noise-reduction processing, but there is bound to be a quality trade-off) and this will have a limited dynamic range, leading in high-contrast situations either to burned out highlights or noisy shadows. The lack of dynamic range can also be seen in limited detail in photos including trees in the distance and the like. The new Venus 2 'engine' is partly required in order to post-process the image to minimise these problems while retaining a fast throughput of data.
So what you are basically saying is that the FZ10 produces flawed pictures that are noisy, limited dynamic range and burnt out highlights, noisy shadows, and limited detail.

Andyou are sayingPanasonic were lying when they claimed to me in their FZ10 marketing that the the venus engine 1 "results in rich, dynamic images" and "fine image rendering and great detail" , or that the CCD "brings out a full range of expressive color and detail"

And that in fact the Venus 2 engine was needed to minimise these "problems"

Do you have some way I can reference you on these statements? I would like to take my FZ10 back to Panasonic as it clearly is not fit for purpose and insist they replace it with an FZ20 that has been knowingly designed to overcome the known flaws in the camera they miss sold me.

Amazing howpeople willrubbish the previous products in order to promote the new.
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Old Jul 22, 2004, 5:30 PM   #24
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Hi I just bought an FZ2 on Ebay. I wrote somewhere that it is an firmware upgrade of the FZ1. I saw a lot of brilliant pitures taken with the FZ1. I think i can live without Venus II for a few years from now, or do you thik I should get nervous.....?
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Old Jul 22, 2004, 8:20 PM   #25
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lawrencew wrote:
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The design of the FZ series of camera is based around a lens whose optical characteristics presuppose a small CCD. Small CCDs are inherently noisy for reasons embedded in the laws of physics. FZ series cameras will always have a tendency towards noisiness (the new versions attempt to conceal this with noise-reduction processing, but there is bound to be a quality trade-off) and this will have a limited dynamic range, leading in high-contrast situations either to burned out highlights or noisy shadows. The lack of dynamic range can also be seen in limited detail in photos including trees in the distance and the like. The new Venus 2 'engine' is partly required in order to post-process the image to minimise these problems while retaining a fast throughput of data.
So what you are basically saying is that the FZ10 produces flawed pictures that are noisy, limited dynamic range and burnt out highlights, noisy shadows, and limited detail.

Andyou are sayingPanasonic were lying when they claimed to me in their FZ10 marketing that the the venus engine 1 "results in rich, dynamic images" and "fine image rendering and great detail" , or that the CCD "brings out a full range of expressive color and detail"

And that in fact the Venus 2 engine was needed to minimise these "problems"

Do you have some way I can reference you on these statements? I would like to take my FZ10 back to Panasonic as it clearly is not fit for purpose and insist they replace it with an FZ20 that has been knowingly designed to overcome the known flaws in the camera they miss sold me.

Amazing howpeople willrubbish the previous products in order to promote the new.
It's the other way around.

The FZ3 and the FZ20 have smaller pixel pitch than the FZ1/FZ2 and the FZ10. Therefore the added power of the Venus-2 engine is needed to alleviate the problems that the laws of physics impose.

Unfortunately, TANSTAAFL- noise reduction also removes picture detail.
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Old Jul 23, 2004, 6:17 AM   #26
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lawrencewwrote:
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Am I just overly suspicious, but when someone like "Rosanna" comes along and for their VERY FIRST post, makes detailed comments like this, doesn't it kinda make you think they might just be a Panasonic insider?

And the way you and some other guys are hitting on Panasonic.....are you on the Konica payroll?
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Old Jul 23, 2004, 9:21 AM   #27
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Belz wrote:
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what is late summer 2004? summer officially ends september 21 i leave for a trip september 12 to croatia and would like this fz15, but i would like 4 weeks to try which gives me august 15 as late as i can wait, is it possible to get this camera by then, in 3 weeks?

i hope so, or i'll have to buy the fz10, but it's priced the same and i won't be able to return after my trip, what to do....

please inform me on when shipments are going out and when i can order it and get it dates...

thanks


From the following site it says available August 27th..

http://pc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/2004/0721/pana1.htm


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Old Jul 23, 2004, 10:08 AM   #28
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Wow! This came right out of left field!

rosanna wrote:
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There seem to be some very basic misunderstandings here and in other recent posts.
So true! But I'm keen to find solid facts rather than chase fairy tales. I'm also one of the FZ10 owners who do not consider the FZ15 and FZ20 to be an affront to my dignity, but simply the march of progress. :-)

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The design of the FZ series of camera is based around a lens whose optical characteristics presuppose a small CCD. Small CCDs are inherently noisy for reasons embedded in the laws of physics.
I'm with you so far. Only DSLRs with their big CCDs do well in noise tests.

Quote:
FZ series cameras will always have a tendency towards noisiness (the new versions attempt to conceal this with noise-reduction processing, but there is bound to be a quality trade-off) and this will have a limited dynamic range, leading in high-contrast situations either to burned out highlights or noisy shadows.
Hate those blown highlights! (So I use EV-2/3 and put up with the shadows.)

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The lack of dynamic range can also be seen in limited detail in photos including trees in the distance and the like.
Ooh! Could you go into more detail about this "limited detail" thing, especially as it relates to trees. I have found that through practice I can now get high quality shots of people, small objects, buildings, nearly anything really, with my FZ10, but I am always disappointed by trees. They always look sort of soft or indistinct. From what you are saying, indistinct images of trees is a consequence of the laws of physics interacting with a small sensor. Right? If so, can you explain why this happens?

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Hopefully these matters can now be laid to rest and more time can be spent on more productive discussions.
You may know physics and cameras, but you don't know discussion forums!
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Old Jul 23, 2004, 4:47 PM   #29
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Ok...

Well, I was going to buy my first digital camera and it was going to be a Lumix DMC-FZ10. It seemed to be a very good camera for its price, although with some flaws, but I guess we all know no camera is perfect. However, now everybody's talking about theLumix DMC-FZ20. I think I understand why some people above are bothered with Panasonic, but now I only want to ask:

Is it an improved-in-all-aspectsversion of the FZ10? That's what it seems to be (5Mp, assist lamp), but I don't know if they've gone backwards in some aspects, like they did with the FZ15: you cannot use an external flash with that camera, as you could with the FZ10. I am worried specifically about the noise.

I previously checked and found good prices for accesories. Would they all work with the new model, or should I start checking again? I guess the type of battery is the same as in the FZ10, but I am not sure. Is it? Also, the dimmensions seem to be pretty much the same. But I'm not sure, having seen a picture of the FZ20 with a strange-looking lens hood (well, different that the one in the FZ10) if the new lens hood does have the same length, neither if it supports 72mm filters. The memory card, from what I know, is the same in both the FZ10 and the FZ20.

Well... that's perhaps a lot to ask, but I guess I'm not the only one who would like to know it. And, finally, where can I buy it, and when,and for how much?



Thank you, and keep on saying when you think something is wrong... don't listen to thngs like "Hopefully these matters can now be laid to rest and more time can be spent on more productive discussions." We are the CUSTOMERS! Aren't we?


Thank you.
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Old Jul 23, 2004, 8:24 PM   #30
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José, on paper the FZ20 is better all round than the FZ10. Better grip, better metering, better focusing, more megapixels. Same battery, same memory cards.

There is just a pinch of doubt in our minds though whether more megapixels is an improvement or not. I'm guessing it's more or less the same, but it could be a step backwards in image quality. The 5MP sensor is probably noiser than the 4MP sensor of the FZ10, but then the Venus II engine has better noise removal than the original Venus engine in the FZ10. We'll have to wait for reviews.

Don't worry about the petal hood. That's an extra bit that you might find handy, but can take off.

As for 3rd party adapters like the Yoshida, they probably work, but I would wait for them to verify that and possibly change their designs.

If I didn't already have a FZ10 I'd be look seriously at getting a FZ20!
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