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Old Jul 23, 2004, 2:37 PM   #21
RMC
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Look bob it seems to me as though you are cherry picking who to reply to and avoiding answering questions regarding things that could be fixed by a firmware upgrade. I don't think many of us out here expect a firmware upgrade that is going to turn our fz10s into fz20s. The fz10 is a great camera and i really like mine a lot but that said it does have its problems. For instance the first time i had darkening of the evf i thought i had a faulty unit, and it was not until i read around the forums that this was the same for everyone. Now i haven't seen anyone state that they like or don't mind this so in our eyes...... The customer, this is a fault which requires a fix. Couldn't this be done by firmware? If you cannot fix this through firmware would we be within our rights to return the units as faulty to be repaired? This is an important point because we need to be happy with the products we spend a lot ofour money on. Even more importantly though is how you feel as a customer when you encounter problems and it has too be said the attitude i get from you isignorant as you avoid answering specific points and just point out that theres a new cameranow! After sales is part and parcel of selling products and panasonic has a responsibility to support the people who buy from them. There seems to be a lot of unhappy people on this forum and it comes down to thefactthat they feel panasonic dont care about the faults. It would be nice if you could get an official response from panasonic to the issues that have been raised over the last few days. With all that said i for one welcome your participation in this forum and understand that you have a job to do on behalf of panasonic, but don't you think as an act of good faithyou should at least address the issues that could be put right through firmware or offer to put them right if they are returned? I don't expect you will bother to answer this as you are being put on the spot, but if you don't it will just confirm that panasonic couldn't care less about their existing customers they just want to take your money and run! Hope i'm wrong..... But i doubt it!
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Old Jul 23, 2004, 5:11 PM   #22
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First it was a rant about the lack of a firmware upgrade for the FZ10 now it's directed Panasonic Bob... sigh.

Panasonic Bob may not always deliver the news and explanations that you want but at least he is here in the discussion boards... probably something you won't find in other boards.

tk6411, good luck with your Nikon D70. That's an awesome camera in an entirely different league than the FZ10.

But don't hold your breath for a firmware upgrade to the moire pattern problem in the D70.
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Old Jul 23, 2004, 5:13 PM   #23
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RMC,

Absolutely correct. Its the appearance of such arrogance on Panasonic's part to not even provide their existing customers with the option of a firmware update that bothers me and others. No where have we asked for a new camera but merely small and subtle fixes like for the evf darkening issue or even allowing for a less compressed jpg or RAW/TIF mode for file saving. Such fixes are possible. We have seen other companies address issues more fundamental than that without compromising quality so why not Panasonic. But I just feel I can't support such a company as Panasonic and their products if they treat us...their customers with such contempt. Upgrade...oh yes we have an upgrade...buy the new FZ20....it'll fix those issues you mention. That's not good enough for me...thus I now have the Nikon D70...a product that Nikon has addressed several matters via firmware updates made avail to its much valued customers. So much for my experience as a Panasonic FZ10 owner.

And as for the moire pattern problem some D70 owners have seen we noticed it at my local camera shop with a particular older lens. It may be that some lenses are more susceptible to the problem than others and fortunately I don't seem to have a lens in my collection that exhibits the problem. No backfocus problem either...the point I make though is that Nikon is at least listening to its customers and not making them spend $600 to $1000 or more for a firmware update in a new camera body.

Jim
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Old Jul 23, 2004, 5:48 PM   #24
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Panasonic Bob, like Panasonic itself, isn't listening.

Several times over the last few days (particularly in a thread that has now unfortunately been deleted) it was clearly expressed that most people were notexpecting a whole host of new functionality (from the FZ20) to become available for the FZ10 through a firmware fix. All they wanted was a solution to some relatively minor issues that have been repeatedly raised and which Bob and Panasonic are fully aware.

However, as RMC said, Bob has just cherry picked a few posts to reply to. NOT ONCE in that post did he actually address the issue, all he did was just use carefully selected posts that enabled him to spin a response.

Frankly I am very surprised that Bobas a support representative decided not to address the problems raised with the cameras, but instead decided to attack posters here, and I actually take exception to the fact that Bob says "The general opinion, as I see it, is that FZ10 owners feel Panasonic is obligated to improve the performance of certain features of the FZ10, closer to what's offered in the new models. "when I see it as just the opposite in that repeatedly people have said all they want is a resultion to problems with the FZ10, not new functionality. Personally, I have been VERY clear on this issue. Yet Bob seems to have totally missed those posts (how strange - and how convenient that thread got deleted) and only seen posts that asked for new functionality.

So, at the risk of sounding boring.... Let me repeat the question, and ask please Bob, simply say YES or NO.

Is there to be a solution (and not a workaround) to two commonly reported flaws or bugs (call them what you will) that many FZ10 owners have reported? Namely

1. constant overexposure by 1/3rd stop

2. darkening of the EVF to the point of unusability when adjusting the aperture in manual mode

I think it would be very easy to stop this continued debate if you simply made Panasonics position clear once and for all.

If people don't like the answer, so be it. They can take whatever action they then feel appropriate. But at least we all know what Panasonic intend to do, or not do.
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Old Jul 23, 2004, 5:49 PM   #25
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tk6411 wrote:
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And as for the moire pattern problem some D70 owners have seen we noticed it at my local camera shop with a particular older lens. It may be that some lenses are more susceptible to the problem than others and fortunately I don't seem to have a lens in my collection that exhibits the problem. No backfocus problem either...the point I make though is that Nikon is at least listening to its customers and not making them spend $600 to $1000 or more for a firmware update in a new camera body.

Jim
That's a good guess but it really has to do with the anti-aliasing filter that was implemented in the D70. They decided to go for greater sharpness and detail at the expense of sometimes having the moire pattern show up. Even though the AA filter is a physical component of the camera, firmware COULD fix it, but it would really mess up some other aspects of the picture quality.

As for Panasonic... I'm sure Panasonic Bob hates to lose customers but from the amount of venom being directed at him and the company... maybe not.
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Old Jul 23, 2004, 7:34 PM   #26
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Well the heat is on for Panasonic.
It may not be Bob's fault, but I wish they would speak plain english to us instead of this spin about this or that. :P
At least tell us why they can't even attempt to correct these's flaws (in plain no tech type english) or even put there heads together & come up with a workaround for the problems. :idea:
And as to the FZ20 being the new boy on the block, well the jury is still out on that one & seeing what is written in another part of theforum it does not look good - but we will wait until the reviews come out for the final word.
I for one will still be using my FZ10 (even with its flaws) & yes I did do my research, plus Isaved for two months for a descent(very good) digital camera (unlike some who have deep pockets).
The result is I pick this one,it was the best of the lot in my list.
I for one hope this haunts Panasonic, it shows that we are not a banch of idiots - all weneed is someone to tell us straight YES or NO.
Need lets go out & snap some photos..... :|
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Old Jul 23, 2004, 9:26 PM   #27
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Hi all,

RMC wrote:
Quote:
Look bob it seems to me as though you are cherry picking who to reply to and avoiding answering questions regarding things that could be fixed by a firmware upgrade.
That it my impression too... And I really don't want to point fingers at Bob here as I always enjoyed reading his posts eventhough I was not an active member of this forum. His help here IS much appreciated and I was one of many who beneficiated from it. To be clear,BOB : THANK YOU FOR ATTENDING THAT FORUM.

Maybe Bob simply can't address those issuesdue to his position in Panasonic. Especially knowing that the dark EVF in dim light (which by the way is not the issue that I'm reffering when I speak of darkening EVF in M mode) is probably a main issue that Panasonic has to live with. Most of us did, and because we read forums knew before we baught that cam that the FZ serie is not intended for low light photography (I'm not talking about night shots nor sunsets here !). Now It's probably a bit touchy with Panasonic as I've never seen it specified officially on any Panasonic documentation. Let's think for a minute :the cam has a flash, it even has a night mode and a hot shoe, it implies that any user should be able to take pics in dim light. As we all know, the EVF gets blind earlier than most other cam's EVF. We learned to live with it, but it is indeed an issue and a rather serious one, and I can only hope that the FZ20 and its new harware will do better...

The issue I, for one, want to see fixed on the FZ10is not this one, even if it doesrelates to the EVF beeing unusable, because it gets to dark. But in the case I mentioned, it does even when the light conditions are nowhere near what can be qualified as dim light...

If it is the case, Bob, if the EVF is not something Panasonic wants you to talk about here, please tell us ! As I said in another post it is no use blaming the messenger.

I'll add thatmaybe Bob did answer on those points. In factthe EVF issue was developped on Blinblue's topic, especially in a discussion I had with Fred and Clint. I for one did hope to get Bob's comment on that thread. That's mostlywhy I was puzzled and to be honnest a bit upset to see that it had disappeared. Then, I understand Blinblue's point in doing this andI suppose hewouldn't have deleted it ifBob did in fact add some input on this particular subject.

Further more, as I said, I might be interested in some of the FZ20 new features, andif it's final versions reviews fitsmy hopes, I might well sell my FZ10 and spend some bucks to upgrade to FZ20. But...

- anyways, it won't be before a few months and I would like the issue I raised to be fixed while I will still be using the FZ10.

- I would like to know if this issue has been addressed on the FZ20, and judging by the lack of response from Bob, I tend to beleive it hasn't... Time will tell anyway...

-I wouldn't want to buy another cam from a company that lacks customer support. As said earlier, the firmware upgrade that Panasonic released for the FZ1 played a great role in my decision to get the FZ10... Not because I expected to get a new model for free, but becaused it showed a real customer care strategy. If it appears that Panasonic only sees it now as a regretable mistake on their part, it does change A LOT the way I see things about upgrading to the FZ20...

In fact, the actual Panasonic attitude recalls some bad memories about ATI's disdain for it's customers... After almost getting kicked out of the market by NVidia because of their poor support and crappy drivers, they changed their strategy. Now they're back with some top hardware, AND with a full team dedicated to drivers improvements for all their graphic cards, past and present.

ATI, as everybodydid learn from their mistakes... And Panasonic will probably some day...

Upgrading digicam firmwares may not be the norm today, but it sure will be soon enough. Panasonic did seem to me as having that in mind when I joined the greatFZ family, maybe it was just an illusion...

David

PS : Lawrence, I hope you're not going to delete your post in the near future. :-)
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Old Jul 23, 2004, 11:58 PM   #28
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Hi all,

I've been a long time lurker to this group and owned an FZ10 and FZ1 almost as long. I like them both. They are not perfect, but better than other cameras I owned. I think that many here aren't actually reading what is being said.
  • About this view finder issue, Pana explained in one response that the FZ10 did not include auto gain up to raise brightness when in manual. I've experienced this when I'm using an external flash. Theaperture setting I use would be toosmall to produce a good exposure with available light so the viewfinder was too dark. But with the flash, the picture looks fine. In "P" mode the EVF also looks fine. Manual means no auto.If you are in manual than you'll only seea good image if enough light reaches the CCD. Without an auto gain up system, this is what I would expect. Firmware can't add gain up.[/*]
  • About other issues that some insist firmware will fix, how can you say this just as a user? I find this very hard to accept when you have a user disagreing with an engineer. Pana also mentioned that firmware would have been less cost. Why would they use new hardware if it were not necessary? Huh?[/*]
  • About this over exposure issue, I don't have any problem. I check photos with the camera's histogram and with Photoshop and it centered. First, you can have this problem by using the wrong meter ing mode. If spot mode is placed ona dark object it can cause the picture to be slight over exposed. You can also use the EV control to have the camera under exposure each shot. I learned long ago that internal exposure systems are never as accurate as using my light meter and taking close up measurements of my subject. If you want the best results it sometimes requires some extra care but the results are worth the effort. Try this. Put your FZ10 on a tripod and frame a photo. Take three shots, moving the camera less than 5 degrees in any direction. The exposure for each photo will be different because the exact points where the light is measured will change. That's normal and that's not a sign of any problem. I think people are complaining about things they don't fully understand.[/*]
  • I'm not an engineerbut Iam a photographer for many years. I bought many products and soon after I purchasednewer and better models followed. It's crazy for anyone to expect that the company is going to give you the newer version.Marketing is all about offering a newer product with more bells and whistles so that the customer will buy it. There is no free lunch. Do as I have done and sell your camera on EBAY so you can buy the latest one.[/*]
  • About thecomments that some will sell their FZ10 or won't buy Panasonic this is crazy. Do you really think that your action is going to dent their sales?I read three reviews of movies or restaurants. Usually they are alldifferent. Some good and some bad but its up to each person to form their own opinion. Some men like thin women, some like chunky women. Each person has their own needs.Every person preaches about what is important to him. The sheep who know no better follow and soon you have a flock. This may seem silly, but some of you are saying, this guy might be right.[/*]
  • I think this group is great but it can be better if all the complaining went away. If you don't like the camera, sell it and buy another kind. You'll now have other issues to complain about as any product you buy isn't perfect. I hope I don't offend anyone but this complaining is getting very boring. It's amazing how fast the FZ10 went from good to bad. And most important, Canon or OLympus or Nikon don't seem to care about their customers enough to have a Mr Canon, or Mr Nikon in their groups. Think about it? [/*]
  • Can anyone suggest some free service that I can post some photos on so I can share some of my work? Thank you.[/*]
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Old Jul 24, 2004, 12:17 AM   #29
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I'm getting bored with those panasonic defenders too. Hey, but I won't complain because we didn't come here for amusement. If you get bored with our complaints, just ignore us.
We are demanding what we deserve to get.
Bob is good, Panasonic is bad, are you satisfied now?
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Old Jul 24, 2004, 12:23 AM   #30
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FZ_10abuser, good advice.

If you get bored with our posts just ignore them.

Panasonic should issue a firmware upgrade (but I doubt it) for all the disguntled FZ10 users... are you satisfied now?

Just curious, ever since you joined this forum (3 whole days ago) have you written anything but negative about the FZ10 and Panasonic?

fz_10user wrote:
Quote:
I'm getting bored with those panasonic defenders too. Hey, but I won't complain because we didn't come here for amusement. If you get bored with our complaints, just ignore us.
We are demanding what we deserve to get.
Bob is good, Panasonic is bad, are you satisfied now?
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