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Old Jul 24, 2004, 10:46 PM   #51
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Yes...

Now, will that ever happen?
And, perhaps someone already answered this, but I'm not sure: do the new FZ models have solved this problem (EVF darkening in manual mode)?
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Old Jul 24, 2004, 11:04 PM   #52
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The crux of the problem is there is no competition. Why spend money fixing a problem if it still is so far ahead of the competition.

If another company brought out a similar featured machine, it would be a firmware free-for-all. The winners being the consumers, what a novel idea.

So is it Panasonic to blame or the competition?
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Old Jul 25, 2004, 8:22 AM   #53
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Talking of competition for the FZ10, here's the new Konica Minolta DiImage Z3. Designed to be competition to the FZ10:

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0407/04070703dimagez3.asp
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Old Jul 25, 2004, 1:31 PM   #54
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I am 15 and have been using point and shoot cameras for my whole life. I always wanted a nice camera, this one just blew me away. If you spent a little time learining how to get around a problem you can get proffesional shots easily. I don't understand what you are complaining about, are the pictures not good enough? If someone could maybe list all the things a firmware can change, it won't give you focus assist lamp, pretty much the only thing this camera really is missing, as for the rest this is the #1 camera in its class, no matter the size, because I think the size of this camera is great, unlike some people say.:|
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Old Jul 25, 2004, 1:34 PM   #55
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For one, I would like to see the EVF darkness issue fixed and a TIFF format would help matters greatly...love the FZ10 but a RAW or a TIFF format is at the top of my list of "fixes"

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Old Jul 25, 2004, 3:47 PM   #56
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memberkgb wrote:
Quote:
I am 15 and have been using point and shoot cameras for my whole life. I always wanted a nice camera, this one just blew me away. If you spent a little time learining how to get around a problem you can get proffesional shots easily. I don't understand what you are complaining about, are the pictures not good enough? If someone could maybe list all the things a firmware can change, it won't give you focus assist lamp, pretty much the only thing this camera really is missing, as for the rest this is the #1 camera in its class, no matter the size, because I think the size of this camera is great, unlike some people say.:|
The wisdom of the young! Yes, I agree.

When I use manual mode and the image is too dark, I simply switch to one of the other modes to frame it up. I can do it without looking and it takes a split second. Yes, some who have the need to use the camera in a specific way do have a valid point. I personally don't shoot bugs and seldom, no rarely use manual mode.

We should know just how many people are having this problem, then we can present it. If we have 50 or more it's worth a shot. If we have only a hand full, how much priority does that give us?
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Old Jul 25, 2004, 7:40 PM   #57
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memberkgb wrote:
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I am 15 and have been using point and shoot cameras for my whole life. I always wanted a nice camera, this one just blew me away. If you spent a little time learining how to get around a problem you can get proffesional shots easily. I don't understand what you are complaining about, are the pictures not good enough? If someone could maybe list all the things a firmware can change, it won't give you focus assist lamp, pretty much the only thing this camera really is missing, as for the rest this is the #1 camera in its class, no matter the size, because I think the size of this camera is great, unlike some people say.
Hi memberkgb,

My 15th birthday isfar behind me now, but I do understand your enthousiasm about the FZ10.

Now, what point exactly are you trying to make when you say"If you spent a little time learining how to get around a problem you can get proffesional shots easily" ? It seems to me that those of us who are concerned about that EVF/LCD bug did spend a lot of time shooting with that cam. Speaking for myself I shot around 12.000 pics since I've got my FZ10, in vaioussituations, differentkind of photosand in every mode available.And as for the problem we encounter when using manual mode, we did find some work around. BUT the work around has it's own limitations, so in some cases there are no way out.

BTW, who exactly are "some people" in "I think the size of this camera is great, unlike some people say" ? I haven't seen anybody saying that this cam is not great... We're just saying that it's sotware is flawed in it's conception...

Microdolx refers to your post as "The wisdom of the young", I would call that "over enthusiatyouthlackingsome humility"

David
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Old Jul 25, 2004, 9:45 PM   #58
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Hi microdolx,

microdolx wrote:
Quote:
When I use manual mode and the image is too dark, I simply switch to one of the other modes to frame it up. I can do it without looking and it takes a split second. Yes, some who have the need to use the camera in a specific way do have a valid point. I personally don't shoot bugs and seldom, no rarely use manual mode.

Well, I understand that you do not share my/our interest for macro photography... As probably lots, maybe a majorityof other FZ10 users...

Does that makes you all imune to that EVF Darkeningflaw? I don't think so.

[General response mode ON]

First, some of you might one day come to macro as I did, see how fun it is, and you will then be facing our exact same problems.

But let's leave macro aside... Imagine you're taking indoor pics of your children / grand-children / friends sporting or dancing at their wedding. The room is well lit, and you do see pretty well in that EVF/LCD that so may people criticise over the internet. Yet the light is not enough to go past 1/60s - 1/80sin any mode or any aperture. With no flash, all your pics wil be blured for sure...

Well... No problem the cam has a built in flash, let's use it,go in P mode and shoot ! But too bad, it's no use beyond 2-3 meters unless you're ready to make some really noisy pictures at 200 or 400iso.

OK, that's still no problem because the FZ10 has a hot shoe (in fact, that's one of the reason why you paid almost twice the price of the FZ1/2, as you didn't really need those two extra MPs), and you do have your powerful external flash with you. TTL was not an option so it's a good standard one, but that will sure do the trick.Now you have to set your cam to AP so that you can set the aperture according to your flash settings, and the big flash light indeed does the trick it freezes the movement and you get a great bright picture.

But when you review your photo on the LCD you notice that there is some kind of blury/ghosty halo around the moving subjects ! How is that possible, I must have done something wrongyou think ! You shoot again, butthe exact same problem occurs !So you check back the parameters of the pic you just shot, onlyto find out that the shutter speed was 1/60s,and realize that itleavesenough time for dim, but yet sufficient, ambient light to give that ugly blury effect that you did not want nor expect ! You'll have to increase shutter speed, that is obvious.

So let's switch to M mode, after all that is another of the main reason you went for the FZ10 : it does have a full manual mode that will allow you to set your exposure exactly as you want it to be, and both your flash and the FZ10can support 1/200s speed synchro or even a tad faster. Just what you need to really freeze your pic. You turn the dial and right awaynotice a decrease in the EVF's brightness, that's strange because you didn't hear any mechanical noise, but you still see pretty clearly. As you go up the F-stops to match your flash settings, it gets even dimmer, now you find it difficult to frame. Damn you tell yourself, I understand that when less light comes in though the smaller aperture the EVF darkens, but that didn't affect the EVF when I was in AP with the same aperture, those guys at Panasonic should have realized that this feature is a hassle in dim light and should have done something about it!You're starting to get nervous... But that's still OK... Untill you start upping theshutter speedto 1/200s, only to realize that now you do not see a pip in the EVF nor on the LCD, nothing but some dim lights dots moving as you're searchingfor your subject... Now is the time whenyou really start to loose your nerves : "why the heck does that EVF goes dark ? I have an external flash mounted !!! The shutters speed is totally irrelevant to the light level I'll get in my picture ! That sim really is ill conceived for sure, the guy that designed it probably knew much about electronics than about photography !I'll make sure to report that to Panasonic ASAP !"

With no other choice left, quite upset,you settle for AP, a mode that you could have got on the much cheaper FZ1/2,and because the cam won't go beyond 1/60s you shoot lots of pics, hoping that some of them won't be to affected by this nasty/blury/ghosty effect...

Comming back home, you realize that you do indeed have some keeeper shots, but most of those once in a life timeshotsthat you really wanted to see come out clear are blured. You're really pi**ed off: "Next day I'll make sure to email Panasonic !", and so you do.

When you receive their answer you cannot beleive what you read in you standard looking reply: "We're sorry to hear that your photos did not come out as good as you expected, but that cam of yours is bug free, there are no technical reports of crashes due to that FZ10 feature."

Now you realize that there is only one hope left, the public forums where you hope to find some supportive FZ10 co-users who like you, won't stand to know that their great cam suffers from a clear functionnal flaw, and that maybe, that will drive Panasonic to heartake care of it...



Quote:
We should know just how many people are having this problem, then we can present it. If we have 50 or more it's worth a shot. If we have only a hand full, how much priority does that give us?

That little fiction I just told is just one occasion where you could find out that this bug you don't care about could become a real issue to you too.

Now, not only the number of person having actually trouble with that feature is meaningless in principle (a bug is a bug, be it technical or functionnal,and we all paid for that cam and the tech support that is associated with it. period.) but moreoverANYBODY, while not finding it of any importance to himTODAYcouldencounter it some day. Some might even have had already without even knowing the blur on their pics was due to this camera functionnal flaw, and thinking they did something wrong.

When a flaw is discovered and demonstrated, which I think I just did,IT HAS TO BE CORRECTED to the benefit of EVERY USERS. That is why customer support exists, and that's why Panasonic made the FZ serie firmware upgradable.

Now I may well be all wrong, and please fell free to correct me if you have some conclusive facts to cantradict my point. And once again, I don't expect, nor do I ask for somenew miraculous features, I just want the FZ10 to be functionnal at it's best in EVERY normal situation for the benefit of ALL of it's current and fute users. I really can't see how that could be made low priority...

BTW... After all according to Panasonic, there are no other bugs to take care of. And according to you allFZ10 users,what, other than a bigger bug, could be of higher prority ?

[/General response mode OFF]

Last thing... That post is of course intended to be general. So as much as it is based on one of your previous post, Microdolx,I most hope that you've undersand and that you did not take it personally !

Best regards,

David

Edit : Microdolx, to be sure that you see nothing personnal here, I just made that post a new topic...

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Old Jul 25, 2004, 11:07 PM   #59
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Hi all! I'm putting my oar in again...

I am impressed by your tenacity, ddsm. Well done, and keep up the good work! A cheery Hello! to everyone who is writing about this rationally, and Ptthp! to everyone who is name calling and screaming.

The problem described by ddsm (inappropriate EVF darkening) is real and clearly under software control. How many of you have turned on your FZ10 and tried what he describes before replying on this forum?

Yes, I'm aware that changing to F/8 physically closes the aperture in real time (which can be considered a feature), but changing JUST the shutter speed ALSO darkens the EVF. This can be fixed. We want it fixed.

How does this cause problems? Enable (or attach) the flash and use Manual mode, then reduce the shutter speed to avoid smearing from ambient light. This causes the EVF to go dark. You can no longer frame your shot. This is dumb and not a feature because your huge Sunpak 383 is about to light up the whole room for 1/1000th of a second and all you need from the EVF is the ability to frame your shot.

Yes, you can switch briefly to P mode for framing, but then you have to hold your aim purely by feel when you switch back to M with its black EVF.

In short, the software darkening of the EVF in manual mode when flash is enabled is most certainly not a feature, but a bug. I would be quite happy to have this fixed with a firmware update. If the real time aperture setting in manual mode could be toggled on and off too that would be a pleasant bonus.

I love my FZ10 but it could so easily be just a little bit better!
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Old Jul 25, 2004, 11:20 PM   #60
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I can see it now. In a year or two, Panasonic will give into the software demand for the EVF darkening...And then their number one tech support call will become.."I can't tell how my pictures will come out because this @#[email protected]%#%~ camera always maintains the same lighting on the display!"



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