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Old Jul 29, 2004, 5:55 AM   #21
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Are you sure the noise has to be that bad? No, it's not very good on the FZ10, but here's what DP Review has to say about the Olympus C-8080..."Low high ISO noise, employs noise reduction". And that is an 8MP camera that gives you "only" twice the resolution. Also, my friends Pro1 (also 8MP) is smaller than my FZ10. I don't see the FZ20 as an upgrade path from the FZ10, maybe the FZ30???
Yes, I'm sure the Oly (although it has a bigger CCD) has a noise problem because it employs noise reduction as the FZ20 will. Image quality will degrade when noise reduction is turned on, it's like running every picture through Neat Image or Noise Ninja.
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Old Jul 29, 2004, 8:15 AM   #22
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I just got my FZ10 one week when the FZ20 was announced, p***ed me off big time, but now that i looked at the specs and the "price" i have to pay for it, i probably will get a FZ20 also...why...because it has a remote....and thats one thing i really missed.

And if your travelling in the "tropics" alot, its fun to have a backup thats compatible with all the stuff you've bought already.
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Old Jul 29, 2004, 12:59 PM   #23
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Klaas wrote:
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Are you sure the noise has to be that bad? No, it's not very good on the FZ10, but here's what DP Review has to say about the Olympus C-8080..."Low high ISO noise, employs noise reduction". And that is an 8MP camera that gives you "only" twice the resolution. Also, my friends Pro1 (also 8MP) is smaller than my FZ10. I don't see the FZ20 as an upgrade path from the FZ10, maybe the FZ30???
Yes, I'm sure the Oly (although it has a bigger CCD) has a noise problem because it employs noise reduction as the FZ20 will. Image quality will degrade when noise reduction is turned on, it's like running every picture through Neat Image or Noise Ninja.
No,it's not the same as using a stand-alone NR program because you are attempting to reduce the noise on an image (probably a JPEG), that has already been processed. The Oly reduces noise *before* the image is saved. Also, noise can be reduced to some extent in Photoshop CS without affecting the detail in a picture.

From DP Review on the C-8080 "... image quality is excellent, resolution very high with almost no artifacts...". The noise reduction didn't affect this review verymuch.
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Old Jul 29, 2004, 3:53 PM   #24
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My three concerns with the FZ20 are:

1. Rumors (largely undocumented to be fair) of lesser quality photos.

2. No RAW image (Note: Minolta 7HI had this two years ago)

3. Still sticking to SD format when CF has better rep.

Biggest wish list of all...every dig cam from your $50 one your gramma bought at a garage sale to an Nikon DX2 should have built into it a NINE-IN_ONE reader.

Then we can user whatever memory we possess.

Example: the, old yet still venerated Olympus E20 will accept CF (512 for me no prob) and the max Smartmedia (128) no prob.

What is really cool is if I somehow left my CF in my card reader at home, the E20 automatically goes to my SM which is permanently installed as backup.



Two cents.

I do love the idea of 12x optical with 5 megaPs.

We shall see...

I cannot justify a purchase now anyway as I dumped a boatload of dough to obtain my E20 "et al".

Onward!
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Old Jul 29, 2004, 8:51 PM   #25
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Guerito wrote:
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No,it's not the same as using a stand-alone NR program because you are attempting to reduce the noise on an image (probably a JPEG), that has already been processed. The Oly reduces noise *before* the image is saved. Also, noise can be reduced to some extent in Photoshop CS without affecting the detail in a picture.

From DP Review on the C-8080 "... image quality is excellent, resolution very high with almost no artifacts...". The noise reduction didn't affect this review verymuch.
I agree it's not the same but the same can be said about using levels (or curves)and USM afterwards in Photoshop in stead of using the in-camera sharpening, saturation and contrast settings. In Photoshopyou have full control over the settings and the results are better than the cameras "auto" settings. Ever tried to make a FZ10 iso 400 shot noise free using software? Will the camera be able to do this without loss of quality just because it can apply it before saving to Jpeg?

style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #000000"About the review, were they talking about a iso 50 or 400shot? Was the in-camera noise reduction turned on or off?

style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #000000"Bottom line a 8MP "FZ40" using the same lens and CCD size as the FZ10 will produce inferior pictures with or without noise reduction, maybe sometime in the future (or by using Foveon CCD's) it will be possible to create DSLR like pictures with a small size CCD.
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Old Jul 29, 2004, 10:11 PM   #26
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For copyright reasons, I make it a rule to not post my photos on the Internet, but here's one for you Klaas. This was shot with my FZ10, hand-held at full telephoto and ISO 400 in low light without a flash. The artist was bouncing around quite a bit, so there is some motion blur, but the texture of the keyboard and individual strands of hair are still visible! (You may need a good monitor to see them.) I chose this photo because of the very dark background which should exaggerate the noise. Do you still think that noise can't be removed without loosing detail? I've been using Photoshop since version 2, it's all in knowing how to post-process.

I will agree with one thing you said though. I too would like to see a Foveon sensor in the FZ40.
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Old Jul 30, 2004, 7:50 AM   #27
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You did a good job on that picture Don but it's far from perfection. If your camera gave you this kind of results at iso 50 or 100 would you buy it? My point is it isn't wise to create noise first for the benefit of the "megapixel madness race" and then having to apply in-camera noise removal to get a decent (but quality wise degraded) picture. CCD's and lenses simply have to grow together with the number of MP's to keep noise at a acceptable level (take a look at a iso 400, 800 or even 1600 shot made by a full size CCD DSLR to see what I mean). I think the FZ10 is a great camera with moderate noise levels but adding another MP to the same size CCD for creating a 10% wider and higher picture with a higher noise levels isn't a wise idea. Fopr marketing purposes it will work though as lots of people seem to think more MP's stand for better picture quality.
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Old Jul 30, 2004, 2:56 PM   #28
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Well Klass, even though I presented you with ample evidence contrary to what you have said, you have your mind made up so there's no point in debating this any longer. I'm glad you like your FZ10, I like mine too. BTW, my primary shooter *is* a D-SLR, so I know how much noise to expect.
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Old Jul 30, 2004, 4:42 PM   #29
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I'm certainly thinking about it. I adore my fz10 and will continue to take it every where with me but it would be nice to have one at home thathasn't suffered the abuse I give my 'take with me' cameras. (I have a padded case that fits into a saddle bag so my camera can go with me when horseback riding. Am I crazy. . .probably, but I'm old and that's my excuse).



Suzan
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Old Jul 31, 2004, 1:39 AM   #30
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krrodman wrote:
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I'm going to buy one unless something else is released before the fall. I may wait for an objective review, but it suits my needs perfectly.

richard
Objective reviews are like four leaf clovers. Pasting a stem with three petals to a stem with one petal does not make it so.
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