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Old Sep 24, 2004, 10:21 PM   #21
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NickTrop,

It sounds to me like two company's are putting there technologies together to create a great, and affordable product. Sure they are going to make a fortune off these cameras, but the consumers are going to have the best product out there for the money.

You are too hung up on conspericy theories, and are begining to sound like these 2 companies are secretly planning to take over the world through a lense.

Maybe... Just maybe... They are putting their technologies together to stay ahead of the compatition, and develope great products that the consumer can be happy with and they can profit from as well.

As I said before... I don't care who made the lense...

It's a great lense, and a great camera.

Hey... I wonder if someone from Leica secretly made some of the camera parts?

hmmmmmmmmmm...

Lighten up.

bobc
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Old Sep 24, 2004, 11:47 PM   #22
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LifeWorld wrote:
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Are you trying to say the Nikon D70 made in Thailand is not a Nikon?

...and Canon made in Thailand is also not a Canon? :|
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Old Sep 25, 2004, 1:04 AM   #23
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For a company who is willing to put their brand name on a product,the productmust meet their requirements......it will be suicidal for Leica to put their name there and and disregard its performance etc....

Anyway, here is a quote from Leica COO, taken from the Panasonic global website, under "A few words from Leica"





How does the collaboration process go?

In developing Leica lenses for LUMIX cameras, engineers from the two companies get together right at the optical design stage. Their collaboration continues through the product design, prototype production, and verification stages. In other words, we keep working together until we achieve specifications we're all satisfied with.
It's worth noting that the lens is not the only component that determines image quality. The image engine also plays a role, and it's important to match the sensors. To bring all these elements together into a single complete product over a distance of 10,000 km requires a lot of dedication.
By the way, Japanese engineers have no problem working until midnight and on weekends. In Germany it's different. Our engineers take vacations. It's interesting to me that while Japanese and German engineers have such different lifestyles, they can also work together extremely well. They share the same goals and the same commitment to quality.
Overcoming differences, surmounting obstacles, and doing the best work possible is the attitude at both Panasonic and Leica. As I mentioned earlier, developing a lens calls for lots of discussion. For that reason, engineers from the two companies meet at least once a month in either Osaka or Germany.
Leica has a reputation for being technology-oriented, but I've been very impressed with Panasonic's technical capabilities as well. I'm sure that Panasonic engineers enjoy working with Leica. And I know that employees from both companies are proud to introduce the high-quality products that represent the fruit of our collaboration.

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Old Sep 25, 2004, 7:58 AM   #24
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No conspiracy theory...

What this lens is, is a Panasonic lens, in which Leica played some role it its design. Panasonic pays Leica a fee to use their name. You might say that's a Leica. I think otherwise. And the quality of the lens is not at issue here.

Everyone buys this camera because it has the Leica name attached to it. I know I did. Read the on-line reviews. Leica this, Leica that! Did you know that this camera has a Leica lens? Would they have been saying this if Pana didn't slap the Leica name on the lens? The Leica name means something. But it's NOT a Leica lens! I don't know how anyone could possibly think it is. Leica does not produce or even assemble any of its parts - subcontract or self-manufactured, and receives a fee from Pana to use their name!

This is pure and simple marketing BS to draw attention to the camera - and it worked. Pana leveraged the name recognition of Leica - for a fee, to get street cred in the market. This is much, much different than a subcontracting arrangement where a 3rd party is paid to produce a product. Pana has a licensing agreement with Leica, plain and simple! To add cred to it, the two companies spin about the level of "collaboration". This is right out of the Sony/Zeiss playbook.

Internationally, I believe, Sony is the market leader in digicams. Not Nikon, not Minolta, not Canon... it's Sony and their "Zeiss" lens. It's an effective, albeit deceptive, marketing strategy where Sony is leveraging the name recognition of Zeiss to compete against manufacturers with established brands.

It's actually funny to think that these cameras have true Zeiss or Leica lenses at the price point they are sold for... funnier to think folks "buy it" and in this respect I'm guilty as charged.

By the way, there used to be a phrase, "don't believe anyone over 30." I have altered that phrase to be "don't believe anyone with a "C" as the first letter of their job title." Point being, take Leica's COO corp-spin-speak with a grain of salt, as he hypes the level of collaboration between the two companies.



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Old Sep 25, 2004, 10:24 AM   #25
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I've read a lot of useless discussions here, this one beats them all.....
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Old Sep 25, 2004, 10:49 AM   #26
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NickTrop,

Sorry for busting on you like that, and you may be right about what you are saying.

But... You may not be.

And... When I looked at this camera, I did not know what a Leica was. Most people like me who don't know that much about this kind of stuff don't either.

I looked at a lot of cameras, and most of them felt cheaply made, with there plasitic bodies, flimsy access doors, and thos are the kinds of things I noticed when looking at cameras. Some of them said what the lense was, and I just thought... Well if this thing feels so cheaply built maybe the lense is cheaply built too.

I went through 3 cameras, 2 of which where defective, and the other one had 2 bright spots at the bottom of the LCD (probably a cheap way to light something up), and I returned that one as well. At that point I was ready to give up and get my money back, but they showed me the FZ20. It felt well constructed, felt good in my hands, the access doors felt sturdy, and it had a 12x zoom w/stabalization. I saw that it had a Leica lense, but that is not what sold me on the camera. What sold me on the camera was the construction, the 12x zoom w/stabalization, and some of the users reviews I found on the internet at the store before i bought it.

If what you are saying is true (may or may not be)... And these 2 companies start putting out bad products as a result, I will simply find another great camera when the time comes.

My point is... You cant's stop big buiseness, weather they are taking and recieving money for using eachothers name, or combining their technologies to make better products. They are in buisness to make money.

And... If they do not make good products... Some other company will, and they will get all the buisiness.

So... Please... Stop beating this dead hourse and have fun taking pictures.

No hard feelings?

bobc
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Old Sep 25, 2004, 1:27 PM   #27
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I know everyone loves their Lumix...so do I. However, like it or not, the "Leica" lens on the camera is a "Leica" in name only. Anecdotal, but a pro photographer I discribed this to, laughed out loud, at the concept that anyone would really buy the fact that the Lumix has a true Leica lens under the circumstance, and given the price range of the line.

Hey - Bobc, no hard feelings what so ever! To Klaas I respectfully disagree with your assessment that it's "pointless" discussion. This was a topic of a photo-mag article that I provided the link to, which raises a valid point, which others, including myself, share. I agree with the article, and I'm not the first or only person to conclude this.

"Real" Leica lenses start at $1000 - for the "cheap" ones. If Leica doesn't produce or assemble any of the parts on the Lumix - including the infamous Leica glass, and only collaborated on its design with Panasonic, and Panasonic pays them a fee to use their name - is it fair to the consumer to advertise this camera as having a "Leica lens"? ... That is to say a "Leica ->MADE<- lens"? What's on the Lumix is a ->Panasonic MADE lens<-, regardless of the name on it. Many people buy this camera thinking its glass is made by >LEICA< and that's what's deceptive.

As I've stated, I'm quite happy with the Lumix camera I own. However, I also happen to agree with those who say, no - it's not really a Leica lens on the camera, since Leica didn't make it, and it's really only a licensing arrangement with Panasonic. And, I believe it to be pretty misleading to call it as such. This is not a Leica lens, it's a Panasonic lens who has licensed Leica's name. What is on the Lumix - like it or not, quality of the lens and the camera overall not withstanding, is a Leica lens ->in name only<-.
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Old Sep 25, 2004, 2:25 PM   #28
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I did not say this was a useless discussion... Klass did...

And if you read what I said, you'll see that I agree that you may be right.

But... There is a chance that you may not be right.

No one knows exept the people who are involved, and I for one am not going to dwell on this... I am going to have fun taking pictures.

And you should do the same.

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Old Sep 25, 2004, 5:25 PM   #29
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Final Word:

This is from DRPC Review...

"Just like Sony labels their high-end lens a "Carl Zeiss" lens, Panasonic uses a Leica "DC Vario-Summicron" lens. There has been speculation about whether these are really Zeiss and Leica lenses..."


Great cameras, great lenses, yes I have fun taking pics, but some question - including myself, if these can legitimately be considered "Leica" or "Zeiss" lenses.

Nick
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Old Sep 25, 2004, 7:27 PM   #30
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Hi Klass !

Hey thats the best post out of the lot !

On a side note, I went into a Leica store a few days ago in Central London to ask them what is the best way to look after the lens on the FZ and as far as they were concered the FZ's have Leica lenses.

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