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Old Oct 1, 2004, 5:09 PM   #61
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Observe...

Panasonic FZ-3 Review from DPReview.com:
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/panasonicfz3/page2.asp

1. "Of course the big selling point of the FZ3 is all that glass on the front. The Leica-designed 12x (35-420mm equiv.) optic is..."

2. "So it is a tribute to the designers at Leica (who presumably had some say in the design of the lens) that..."

...and most damningly:

3. "...the FZ3 sports a Leica-branded DC Vario-Elmarit zoom"

Note how he qualifies his praise of the designers of the lens (2nd quote...) by stating openly he is making an assumption that Leica had "some say" in its design. At no point in the DPReview review of the FZ-3 does the author ever refer to the lens on the Lumix as simply, "Leica". He goes out of his way, in fact, to point out it is "Leica-designed" or "Leica-branded" lens.

Why? Because a "Leica-designed" or a "Leica-branded" lens is DIFFERENT FROM a real-n-for-true "Leica" lens! IT IS NOT THE THE GENUINE ARTICLE! And, implicit in the DPReview of the FZ-3, this author agrees with moi. Obviously the author of this review thinks it important enough to make the distinction...

Warm regards,

Nick "Hotbody"
The Italian Heart-throb
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Errata

1. Hey - bobc, no worries, buddy! Go easy, it's all in fun : )
2. Whenever I post a statement to a forum that makes a claim, I use credible sources and also back it up with second source in an effort to apply some journalistic standards and not propagate incorrect info. In an earlier post I provided two links that claimed the Leica designed/branded (hence forth to be refered to as the "Leica-like" lens) lens on the Panasonic LC-5 was showing up on cameras from other manufacturers. I have since been advised from a credible source that this may not be accurate. In fairness to Panasonic, Leica, and anyone who stumbles upon this thread, I have removed these links and all references to their claims about the OEM of the Leica-like lens on the LC-5 from subsequent posts.
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Old Oct 1, 2004, 8:55 PM   #62
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Hmmmmmmmmmmmm. Leica-like. Nah... missing something......

Wait... I've got it! ThEEE perfect name for the Pansonic lens on the Lumixes!!! Ready? How bout we call it...(drum-roll please)......

Like-a-Leica!

By Jove, I think I've got it!

Warm regards,

Nick "Hotbody" the Italian Heart-throb
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Comming Attractions:
Now that I've read some reviews of the FZ-3 and FZ-20, for my next post I will conclusively prove - beyond any shadow of a doubt, that the Lumix FZ1v2 is STILL, FAR AND AWAY, hands-down, bar none, the BEST camera in the Lumix line, and how those who are rushing out to buy the Z-20 are foooo's. The FZ-1v2 BLOWS all other Lumix camreras away (the rest of the lot from other manufacturers, it goes without saying...) I will, as always, as I've done here, make such an air-tight, compelling argument that views counter to my own will look quite silly.

Stay Tuned
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Old Oct 1, 2004, 9:19 PM   #63
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I hereby declare myself the clear winner in this debate, and this matter resolved. The Panasonic lens is to be refered to by all owners and prospective owners of Lumix cameras as a "Like-a-Leica" lens. All views and opinions expressed by others who do not share my point of view on this matter are now declared pointless both in terms of their opinion - and indeed - overall, as human beings. (Not to mention silly... perhaps even more clueless and sillier than that neocon dullard did in last evening's presidential debate, if that's possible)

And now, by the power vested in me by the City of Philadelphia, I now declare this thread dead.

Warm regards,

Nick "Hotbody" the Italian Heart-throb
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Old Oct 1, 2004, 10:02 PM   #64
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Thanks for forgiving me...

So now we can go back to our debate...

http://www.dcresource.com/reviews/panasonic/dmc_fz20-review/index.shtml

If you go here, you can read this:

If there's one feature that defines the FZ20, it's the lens. This is an incredible F2.8 (all the way through the zoom range) 12X optical zoom Leica lens. The focal range is 6 - 72 mm, which is equivalent to 36 - 432 mm. As I mentioned in the previous section, the FZ20 supports both filters and conversion lenses.

This certainly throws a little doupt to your theory.

bobc
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Old Oct 1, 2004, 11:53 PM   #65
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I've been reading this and I think it really got out of hand... The only conclusion that I come up with is that NickTrop has absolutely no understanding of the global economy...

The next time you drink a can of Coke or Pepsi, look at the label. It usually says "Licensed by"... This is due by the fact it is made by a local company in your country who got a license from Coke or Pepsi... So my question to Nicktop is: based on your conclusion of the "Leica" lens, are you really drinking Coke or some kind of knockoff products since it is only a licensed product???

So if Leica or any company who gets there products made in a foreign country is not really authentic, thenMini (theBritish car)is really just aChrysler since the engine is made in Brazil by Chrysler? Or maybe Porsche should stop selling the Cayenne since the chassis is made by VW in Slovakia? Or maybe I should return my Big Mac since thebeef is made by McCain here in Canada and not by the real McDs?

Anyways, it doesn't matter what name they put on the lumix lens as long as it a great lens. And it's made by Panasonic in Japan, not in a little sweat shop in Africa... And I do think we can all agree that it's a great lens designed by a well known company...
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Old Oct 2, 2004, 3:05 AM   #66
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bobc wrote:
Quote:
Thanks for forgiving me...

So now we can go back to our debate...

http://www.dcresource.com/reviews/panasonic/dmc_fz20-review/index.shtml

If you go here, you can read this:

If there's one feature that defines the FZ20, it's the lens. This is an incredible F2.8 (all the way through the zoom range) 12X optical zoom Leica lens. The focal range is 6 - 72 mm, which is equivalent to 36 - 432 mm. As I mentioned in the previous section, the FZ20 supports both filters and conversion lenses.

This certainly throws a little doupt to your theory.

bobc
...couldn't agree with you more bobc, Nick got confused too much and he forgot (or he just simply wanted to ignore it) reading the portion that you've just posted.
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Old Oct 2, 2004, 10:48 AM   #67
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I think that Nick searches only for information that suits his theory, and ignores anything that controdicts it. Hi is so obsessed with being right, that he closes his mind to focus only on that, and not the fact that it is possible that he may be wrong.

Nick,

No hard feelings buddy, but you have not posted one thing that throws any doupt into your theory (and it's still just a theory). This tells me that you are only willing to accept the facts that aggree with... you...

I am hoping that most people are open minded enough to use the information that you provide, and in addition do their own research, and come up with their own conclusion.

As far as your last posts go... I can see clearly now that you are more focused on winning than you are on what type of lense this truely is...

So... As there is no reasons todebate with someone who just wants to win...

YOU WIN!!!

It's whatever lense you say it is, and if I where in charge, I would have all the cameras re-called and have your name put on the lenses.

bobc
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Old Oct 2, 2004, 11:41 AM   #68
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Long after Galileo proved that the earth is round and rotates around the sun, folks resisted. In fact, Galileo, was sentenced to life in prison for being a "heritic" for making this claim. History has proven those who resisted Galileo's assertion as pointless and silly folks who allowed their emotional attachment to a pre-existing belief system to overcome reason, despite compelling evidence that's right before their eyes. (...same applies to the OJ Simpson jurors, as well as Bush supporters...)

This was also true of alchemists who clung to the idea of objects containing "phlogestin" which caused things to fall to the ground prior to Newton's discovery; the notion that electricity was a fluid that existed for a time before Franklin; and all manner of physics prior to Relativity. This is what TS Kuhn dubbed, in his seminal work, "The Structure of Scientific Revolutions" (1962) a "paradigm shift". That is a discovery, so revolutionary, that it fundamentally changes how we perceive the world. In fact, it can be argued that when a true paradigm shift occurs, we don't just perceive the world differently, we - literally, live in a different world.

Going back to the old "subject/object" debates in metaphysics of, "What makes a chair a chair?" Answer being "It's chair-NESS" - that is, does the object (chair) have sufficient attributes in number and degree to qualify it as belonging to the object's category; I have likewise proven here (and I won't rehash all the supporting quotes and assertions regarding this matter, re-read the thread if you like) that the object, "Leica lens" on the Lumix does not qualify as object "Leica lens" since it lacks sufficient quantity and degree of object (Leica) attributes to be considered as such. I have correctly put forth a new more accurate object category, the "Like-a-Leica lens", which is how all owners of Lumix camera should henceforth refer to the lens on their camera. Likewise, Sony camera owners are to refer to the lens of their camera as a "Like-a-Zeiss lens", despite it lacking the same catchy ring as "Like-a-Leica". ("Zeissesque" and "Close-but-no-cigar-Zeiss" are acceptable alternatives.)

Similar to the aforementioned alchemists, those who imprisoned Galileo, and scientists who published papers in support of electricity being a liquid after it was proven otherwise, those who continue to cling to the belief that the lens on the Lumix is a "Leica" and not a "Like-a-Leica" lens - regardless if you are an owner or reviewer of this camera, as those have cited here, are hereby deemed silly and pointless.

Your emotional, unreasonable, disbelieving, and sometimes angry reaction is to be expected. If we were in Galileo's times during the 17th century, there would be an inquisition, and I would be imprisoned for making this claim regarding the Like-a-Leica lens. For I have put forth a true paradigm shift concerning the Lumix camera that is equivalent in magnitude to those put forth of Galileo Galilei, Albert Einstein, and other luminaries in the history of science. This paradigm shift concerning the Lumix has so fundamentally changed your perception of photography and the object "camera", the extent to which, indeed - your world, has quite literally changed. And, it just pisses you off, and you refuse to accept it. You're in denial.

While your emotional reaction - and desire to cling to a reality which has been utterly negated as a result of this revelation is to be expected, the history of camera equipment will prove you to be no less absurd than the aforementioned alchemists and supporters of the "world is flat/sun revolves around earth" perception of reality. The more you resist and cling to your irrelevant and outdated world view, the more absurd your perceptions will be viewed. Or, as the modern cliche goes, resistance is futile. Now, I'm done with you, and this thread. Be gone. G'wan, go peddle your papers. And so, once again...

By the power vested in me by the city of Philadelphia, in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania I hereby decree that the lens on the Panasonic Lumix digital camera is to henceforth be called a "Like-a-Leika" lens. Furthermore, I hereby proclaim this thread officially dead, and myself the winner in this debate. All who do not comply or agree with this POV are to be considered by all to be quite silly people.

Warm regards,

Nick "Hotbody" the Italian Heart-throb
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Old Oct 2, 2004, 12:04 PM   #69
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This topic was slowly and painfully dying last time NickTrop invoked the powers vested in him by the city of Philadelphia. Now, everyone's repeating their arguments once again... I think we all know what the points pro and against this hypothesis are.

So, this topic is dying, let it die in peace!

Thanks.
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Old Oct 3, 2004, 12:53 AM   #70
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NickTrop, what is a "seminole work"?::?:
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